What Do You Do When Someone Is Trying to Steal Your Mate?

Name: Barb Solomonjealous
Comment: Two years ago, and a few months before we started dating, my boyfriend came very close to sleeping with a married friend. They had been drinking at his home and although he was very close to being fully intimate with her and was in stages of undress, claims he stopped it right before they slept together. They then went to sleep and never really spoke about it again although he did promise not to tell anyone. They remain friends and her husband does not know. Recently, it was his 29th birthday and we made a small barbecue at my apartment. During the barbecue, I felt uncomfortable and sensed that she was ignoring me. She and a friend wanted to go out dancing while their husbands went home. I told my boyfriend to go with them because I was still cleaning up and because I am studying for the bar and truly couldn’t take off any additional time. I also noticed he had been drinking a lot and the girls had made me feel unwelcome. Although I explained that I would go to a closer place, he said he believed that they would not switch plans and so he did not ask if we could go to a closer bar—he left with them although I was visibly upset.
I got angry because he got back late and was very drunk. I repeatedly asked him that night and the next day if anything had ever happened with either of the girls. He kept insisting that nothing had ever happened and that he was not at all attracted to either of them. Eventually, I forgave him after a few days of tense interaction. About a week later, in the context of a conversation where I told him that I really wished he opened up more, he told me that they had almost been intimate before we starting dating. Although I asked numerous times if their dancing on his birthday was at all risqué, he insisted that it was not. When I confronted the girl, she told me that they were dancing very closely together but that nothing more serious had happened. He explained that they danced very closely but that she initiated and he pulled away after 15 minutes. It has been a couple of weeks and I told him that I would try to make us work, after his repeated statements of love and begging for forgiveness, but I still wonder if I can ever trust him again. I believe that he has always been faithful to me, but I also think that when he is drinking, he loses control and has and continues to make major mistakes. While evidence indicates that he may at times drink too much, I do not think he suffers from any serious alcohol abuse problems although he does have a family history of the disease.  A lot of my concern stems from the fact that his intimacy and ongoing friendship with a married woman makes me believe that he lacks the appropriate respect for marriage, something we have been discussing quite seriously. I believe he kept her in his life because he is somewhat lonely for more friends and because the mistake happened one time when he was single and wanting a warm body (she initiated) and they have been friends since they were 12 years old. I also believe that he does not have any particular attraction to her. I also understand that people, myself included, make romantic mistakes. At the same time, we have the sort of relationship structured on honesty and trust—the kind that is built on a close friendship. I have not decided whether I should break up with him over this given my feelings that he disrespected and lied to me. He has, and despite this episode, continues to be the most supportive and loving boyfriend I have ever had. At the same time, I do not know if it makes sense to stay with someone who it may not make sense to trust.
Age: 26
City: New York
State: NY


Okay. There’s a lot going on here. Let’s first address his relationship with his married friend.

So, long time readers know that my closest friend is a guy and that he’s married. He lives in Boston, I live here, we never see each other but we talk regularly. It’s my opinion that his friendship with me compensates for things lacking in his marriage. This kind of dependency has made me increasingly uncomfortable. As such, I’ve taken measures to draw some boundaries. Just because I engage a married friend who has been in my life for almost 20 years doesn’t mean I don’t value marriage. Your boyfriend didn’t sleep with this woman. So he says. I would take that to mean that he does respect marriage. You’re never going to know if he did or didn’t. Either you believe him or you don’t.

Your boyfriend’s married friend is likely looking to your BF as some kind of relief. A smart person would have known to lie when you asked if she and he were dancing closely. She didn’t. It’s possible that she was the one who was lying all along or that she just saw the way they danced as being far more intimate than he did.  She wants his attention for herself, most likely. She’s trying to drive a wedge between you two so that she can have the majority of his focus. This is a problem I’ve had to tackle with my aforementioned friendship. He changes the subject when I bring up the men I date and is otherwise dismissive of various issues that I discuss that concern them. No. Wrong. Don’t do that. I see what he’s doing. He doesn’t. I’m sure if you confronted your guy’s married friend, she’d say you were crazy. She’s living in the land of denial, not wanting to admit that there are probably some problems in her marriage that need fixing.

I think the first step you need to take is discuss this relationship with your boyfriend and ask him to break ties with this woman. It would be one thing if she were showing respect for your relationship. Seeing as though she is disrespecting her own marriage, I doubt she’ll ever show you the deference that you deserve. What you need to understand before you do that is that he could and probably will lie to you about distancing himself from her.  You might never even know that she’s still in his life. So if you stay with him, you’re going to have to trust him that he either is telling the truth and no longer has dealings with her or is still friends with her but will never cross that line.

It really sounds like you need to get this woman out of your lives. It doesn’t sound like your problem is with your boyfriend. It’s with her. She’s the source of the problem. Not him. He’s kept her in his life because they’re friends and because it doesn’t sound like you’ve asked him not to be friends with her. So that’s what you have to do now. Do that and see how he reacts. His response will probably tell you just how committed he is.

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26 Responses to “What Do You Do When Someone Is Trying to Steal Your Mate?”

  1. fuzzilla Says:

    >I do not think he suffers from any serious alcohol abuse problems<

    Yet you make a point to bring up his drinking in an advice column letter. The OP sounds like she has "it's all about me" syndrome – in the sense that everything wrong must be something she did wrong, some information she didn't have, something she misunderstood. Not that the guy is an inconsiderate jackass. This whole thing sounds crazy codependent.

  2. Selena Says:

    Your boyfriend wanted to go dancing with 2 friends who were over for his birthday party. You didn’t want to go unless they went to a bar that was closer. Your boyfriend didn’t think the girls would want to switch location so he didn’t ask them. You tell him to go ahead and go. You were visibly upset when he left. Why didn’t you just go with them? The cleaning up could wait. You weren’t going to be studying if you went to a closer bar, so why should the location matter? You say you were very angry because he came home late and drunk. No, you had been pissed for hours because he didn’t pick up the cue you didn’t want him to go…even though you told him to!

    All the repeated quizzing him about dancing, calling up one of the girl’s to quiz her about it – all sounds jealous and irrational in light of the fact you didn’t know about your boyfriend’s “near miss” with his friend at the time. You found that out days later.

    You’ve been together 2 years now – why don’t you trust him? Has he done things that were untrustworthy? Given you any reason to think he was cheating, or sniffing in that direction? Why were you so angry he went dancing with these women instead of staying home with you? If you thought something ‘might happen’ I have to wonder why you didn’t go with them, or ask him not to go. Has he accused you of being jealous for no reason before? Were you trying to be the “cool” girlfriend by telling him to go even though you didn’t want him to?

    I suspect there are issues here that go far beyond the fact he came close to sleeping with a married friend before you started dating. Further, I believe even if he ended this friendship he’s had since he was 12, the issues would still be there. After 2 years together and marriage on the table, you really need to address those issues whether they are his, yours, or a combination.

  3. HammersAndNails Says:

    I should have stopped reading when you decided to call it a night on his birthday, told him to go have fun, then flipped a temper tantrum and acted surprised he didn’t want to cancel the festivities so he could spend his birthday playing “nothing’s wrong” game with his sour angry mood swing girlfriend

    Calling random people to check up on your boyfriend seems a bigger violation to me than a third party description of precisely what sort of dancing he did when he told you he was going out dancing

  4. HammersAndNails Says:

    “I told my boyfriend to go with them because I was still cleaning up and because I am studying for the bar and truly couldn’t take off any additional time….he left with them although I was visibly upset.” – emotionally unstable blackmailer behavior 101.

    ” I asked numerous times if their dancing on his birthday was at all risqué” – crazy

    “I confronted the girl” crazy.

    “I told him that I really wished he opened up more, he told me that they had almost been intimate before we starting dating. “…..and then I acted “angry”, “hurt”, “offended” which, and made a huge deal of nothing and punished him with emotional tension and misery for being dumb enough to believe me about valuing open communication

    You are the worst. This is textbook “how to destroy a man’s will to live” behavior. Tell him to do something? It’s a test. What you want is absurd, so you say do reasonable thing. If he does it, flip your shit and make him miserable for a week. Your neurotic chronic insecurity acting up? Grill all eyewitnesses until someone gives you a word or two that your insecurity can twist into a perceived slight. Plead with someone who loves you to open up to you? use everything they say against them. you. are. the. worst.

    • Greg Figueroa Says:

      Hammer, you are so right. I agree with both your comments. It’s his birthday, he’s probably been drinking since the BBQ. So do you think he has a curfew? even on his birthday?

  5. noquay Says:

    You don’t get it both ways sister; no telling someone to do something then getting upset because they do just that. It was his birthday, he gets to enjoy himself. You could’ve planned ahead of time, studied more, etc so you could go with him. There are more serious issues here; your jealousy, a man that’s going to cheat is not going to be as open as he was, he’s gonna be sneaky, furtive. Giving anyone the third degree repeatedly is a major turn off. You are concerned about the level of his drinking; perhaps that’s what you need to focus on.

    • fuzzilla Says:

      It didn’t immediately leap out at me just how crazy she was acting, but I do agree with the comments left here (although calling her “the worst” isn’t terribly productive). “I have to study…but I’ll go to a closer bar” – well, then you’re not studying, are you? You wanted to be included on your terms and pulled out the “but I have to study” card to play the martyr when that didn’t happen. “I called her to ask how closely they were dancing.” Of course this guy’s friend doesn’t like you if you go out of your way to ask shit like that. What’s she supposed to say, “Next time I’ll bring a tape measure so I can tell you exactly how far apart we were on the dance floor”?

      Bottom line is, OP doesn’t trust this guy. Is this warranted or not? Is she paranoid and blowing things out of proportion, or is he really untrustworthy? Is it both – that he’s untrustworthy *and* she’s overreacting? Is she like this in every relationship she’s ever had or is it just this guy with his “not a drinking problem, but” and his weirdly ambiguous friendship?

      She doesn’t seem very happy, so it’s unclear why she’s fighting so hard for this relationship and is considering marriage(?).

      Seriously, there’s lots to comb through here, OP. Find a good therapist (no shame in that; most people could use one).

  6. Raving Lunatic Says:

    “I told my boyfriend to go with them… …he left with them although I was visibly upset.”

    You tell him to go ahead, and then get upset when he does. Lost me right there. That’s nothing but a recipe for misery.

  7. Greg Figueroa Says:

    Maybe the married friend likes him and that why she ignores the OP. But I’m getting the vibe that the OP doesn’t hide her dislike for potential threats very much.

    Getting angry at a guy for drinking too much and be out too late (that the OP told him to do. . .go out) on his birthday is really corny. The thing is in NYC the nightlife ends around 4AM (later than most cities).

    What does almost having sex two years ago have to do with his current relationship? Nothing! He was single and she felt a way that night and they left it alone. He should have never told OP because she will act understanding, but use every word against him.

    • fuzzilla Says:

      Is it that he stayed out late, or who he stayed out late with?

      Shoe on the other foot – yeah, I’d be annoyed/feel smothered if I was dating someone who got pissy at me for staying out late with friends on my birthday. If it wasn’t the staying out late, but the who I stayed out late with – I’d do my best to get my BF and the person he had concerns about to be friends or at least friendly. I’d make an effort to show my BF that this friend respects him and our relationship. Have dinner with the two of them alone, stuff like that. I’d do my best to build bridges and meet the guy halfway. If after that things are still untenable, I’d probably dump the guy.

  8. Melissa Says:

    wow. some of the comments here are HORRIBLE. no compassion, no attempt to put one’s self in the other’s shoes. ATWYS did a great job of responding and then i look at the shit show here in the comments. why such vitriol? such hostility? this women is asking clear and sincere questions and a bunch of you are going off on her like she’s some codependent nightmare aka “the.worst.ever” (seriously? even worse than HITLER? c’mon now). and “you don’t get it both ways sister” – what is this a 1920s speakeasy?

    i think her questions were valid. for you people to extrapolate from ONE letter and ONE incident she writes of for you to take it to where you have speaks volumes about the amount of bitterness you each carry around with you.

    i hope this women figures it out and her boyfriend is sincere. i hope they get a manipulative person out of their lives. and if you disagree, don’t go whole hog and insulting in your comments – it just makes you look sad and mean. and kinda stupid.

    • Andthatswhyyouresingle Says:

      Keep in mind that the majority of men who comment here have little to no relative dating success. Hence why the comments for most posts of late are a fucking shit show and popular contributing commnters have stopped commenting.

      Had the OP spoke her mind and told her BF she didn’t want him going out with his married female friend, she’d have been accused of being territorial and overbearing. Whatever. Keep bitching, guys. That’ll turn back time and right all those wrongs.

      • meh Says:


        look at the number of thumbs up for Selena’s comment. it’s a huge amount. because the men & women on your site are agreeing.

        when there is that kind of agreement you need to maybe consider that there is a good reason for that. namely that “barb” is an immature young girl who doesn’t know how to talk about her feelings like an adult because she is too busy playing mindgames with her boyfriend.

        people are talking from experience. we have all dated this girl. her & other young girls need to know that men aren’t mind readers.

        • fuzzilla Says:

          Selena’s feedback, and the general consensus that OP should own her behavior, make sense and yes, most people agree. Throwing in hateful vitriol like “you are the worst” and “your little law degree” are the “shit show” that Melissa and Moxie are referring to.

          • meh Says:

            yeah, no.

            melissa is complaining that everyone was harsh so Melissa quoted a man & a woman as examples of all the meaness.

            & then moxie ignored you & the other women who commented so she could blame the men.

            and you quoted someone who commented hours after Melissa did.

            There is no shit show on this post. Just men & women in agreement about this young girl & they aren’t walking on eggshells.

  9. D. Says:

    I dunno. This one sounds pretty complicated. The OP’s behavior, as described, does seem over the top and counterproductive, but I don’t know that there’s a better way to handle what she’s feeling that won’t also cause trouble. So, yeah, she could just tell him “I don’t want you to go,” but Moxie’s right that he won’t take kindly to that (or probably wouldn’t, anyway).

    The real issue seems to be that she doesn’t sound that happy or secure in the relationship. I have no idea what’s driving that, but I’d bet it’s more than just the comment about having almost slept with a married friend. I mean, sure, that’s not gonna inspire a lot of warm fuzzy thoughts, but under other circumstances, I could see someone saying that the past is the past and as long as he realizes what a mistake it was, not a huge deal. We’ve all done stupid shit in our past.

    Whatever the cause, there’s a serious lack of trust at play here. Quizzing the guy AND the people he went out with about what happened is over the mark, in my opinion, but is apparently driven by this lack of trust. I’ve seen good friends who are in similar situations make similar mistakes (e.g. reading a partner’s email to see if they can find incriminating evidence). And these were people I NEVER thought would do something like that.

    When you’re seriously doubting your partner, for whatever reason, you’ve got to get to the core of it and resolve that core issue. If the core issue is that the OP doesn’t trust the guy, then the question is how to actually resolve it. Would getting rid of this married friend do that? Maybe. I don’t know, but the OP should ask herself if he said, tomorrow, “Fine. I won’t hang out with Jamie ever again. Happy now?” whether she’d actually be satisfied, or whether something else would come up. My bet is that such a gesture might allay her fears for a little while, but something else would come up down the road. That said, asking a guy to completely drop a long-time friend is…dicey at best, and could end the relationship. That may not be such a bad thing, under the circumstances, but maybe a little gradual escalation is better than going right to the nukes. Maybe ask him to talk to her and ask her to tone down the flirtiness or whathaveyou.

    That said, I’m guessing that there’s a mix of issues at play here. Probably some underlying insecurity on the OP’s part, but also probably something about this guy’s behavior that just rubs her the wrong way. Let’s also not forget that the lead-up to the bar exam is INCREDIBLY stressful, so that’s probably not helping matters either. Mix all of this together and you end up with the situation the OP describes.

    At any rate, before acting, I’d suggest really looking at why she doesn’t trust this guy and where that lack of trust is coming from, then addressing the root cause(s). Otherwise, this type of issue will likely just crop up again at some point.

    And for chrissakes do NOT marry the guy until this stuff is sorted out.

  10. mindstar Says:

    According to the OP they’ve been dating two plus years and she believes this guy’s judgment is impaired when he drinks. She also fears that there may be a level of attraction between her boyfriend and his married friend. So her solution is tell him to go out dancing with this woman after he’s been drinking all day???? Then she gives him the third degree over what did or did not happen and call up his married friend to interrogate her too. Very mature response to a situation that the OP herself created. The OP never said her boyfriend wanted to go out dancing she told him to go. Hell it’s his birthday and his girlfriend is telling him to go out dancing with someone else? And her excuse that she had to study is canceled by her own statement that she was willing to go out if it was to a closer place. Her level of jealousy is pretty extreme and does not bode well for a marriage to her boyfriend.

    And to those who feel there has not been suffucient understanding of the OP let’s reverse the scenario and the genders. Have the guy stay home on his girlfriend’s birthday and send her out dancing with her married male friend of 17 years when she’s had a lot to drink. Were he to act as the OP did in that situation he’s also have been pilloried in the comments just as the OP has been. In fact I don’t he’d get one sympathetic comment

    • Selena Says:

      I wonder if it played out this way: she didn’t want to go to the venue the two girls picked. She suggests another venue to her boyfriend where SHE wants to go, but he doesn’t bother to mention it believing the women wouldn’t be interested in changing. She’s pissed right then and there, makes excuses about cleaning up /studying and makes sure her displeasure is visible. By doing this she believes he will either stay home or say, “Hey, let’s go here instead.” He doesn’t. She stews for hours and let’s him have it when he gets home. Followed by days of making him pay and beg for forgiveness. Then she’s all sweet and just wants them to be open and honest with each other. He does open up and confess something he’s not proud of that happened before they met. Now she’s really got some ammunition to use on him.

      She doesn’t say what kind of mistakes her boyfriend is continually making when he drinks. Maybe she does have some reason to be jealous, insecure, etc. But her own behavior struck me as passive-aggressive. Counseling might be beneficial to both, especially if they are seriously considering marriage.

  11. POV Says:

    That’s right, OP, keep testing your man.

    Hopefully he will figure out that you didn’t want to spend HIS BIRTHDAY with him but the other woman did. I think he probably already has.
    That’s ok, soon you will have your little law degree and be online with all the other lawyer women on OKC.

  12. LostSailor Says:

    I have to agree with Selena and the other comments. I don’t think Moxie’s right on this one, and there’s missing information here that might be teased out between the lines.

    I agree that Barb is overly jealous, demanding explanations over and over, getting angry when the BF and the married friends went dancing after she told him to go, urging him to “be more open” and then using it against him. These are not the actions of someone in a relationship “structured on honestly and trust.” If she didn’t want him to go dancing, she should have said so; that’s not being territorial or overbearing, it’s being honest–hell, she was still cleaning up when she told him that. The thing is Barb was not honest in telling him to go dancing; it’s the last thing she wanted.

    Having been in a very similar situation to the BF, there is another perspective to all this. BF and married friend (MF) have a 17 year friendship. Barb’s been dating him for 2 years. Barb clearly invited MF and husband to the birthday party or knowingly acquiesced when BF invited them, and she clearly knows MF enough to “confront” her. Suggestions that MF is living in denial about problems in her own marriage and using BF as some sort of emotional crutch are pure conjecture, colored, I believe, by Moxie’s personal experience with her friend. Demanding that BF sever all ties the MF after 17 years of friendship? That is being territorial, overbearing, and controlling.

    Moxie is right about one thing: Barb’s going to have to trust BF that nothing happened in the past, that he will remain friends with MF and never cross that line (with her or anyone else) if she wants her relationship to the most supportive and loving boyfriend she’s ever had to continue. And that right there is what I think is fueling the jealousy: fear. Barb is afraid that this great guy, the best BF she’s ever had might slip away even though they’ve been discussing marriage. I don’t know, but suspect that her earlier relationships ended badly for her, such that she’s driven by this fear to eliminate what she perceives is competition.

    My similar situation was, before we were married, my ex’s unfounded jealousy over my close, long-term friendships with several women I’d know since college and spoke with frequently on the phone (pre-web days). There was never any sexual component to those friendships but they made my then-GF “very uncomfortable.” I told her if she couldn’t trust me, she knew where the door was. She eventually learned to deal with it and because close friends with both women.

    So, Barb, if you can’t do the same, and get beyond your jealousy, fear, and trust issues, break up now. In the end you’ll be doing him a favor…

  13. coffeestop Says:

    So. When I was married my now ex husband had a female friend he had also known since he was 12 or some pre-me age they grew up together blah blah. Great. She was not friendly to me. I did tell my spouse that I was not comfortable with the friendship. Of course my discomfort was all “in my head” because according to him she “liked me.”. The ex was fairly clueless at reading people lucky for the universe his job does not involve that skill. Well, you can guess what happened. I think, and I am sure I will be in the minority that happily married people do not need to have good friends of the opposite sex. I am suprised this woman’s husband is ok with it. The LW did not handle her discomfort well or communicate it well but maybe it is a gut instinct that should not be ignored. She needs to talk to him about this. He already told her he “was almost” intimate with this woman prior to the start of his relationship with the LW. That is BS. He is shading something that probably already happened and will happen again.

    Maybe I am in the wrong age group how many dudes want to go out dancing unless somebody forces them to.

    • fuzzilla Says:

      I don’t agree that men and women can’t be friends (but yes, if they’re attached, there should be clear boundaries and the partner should clearly come first).

      However, I do agree that he didn’t handle her discomfort well. That’s what I meant by my first comment that she’s blaming herself when he acts like an inconsiderate jackass. Then there was a big pile-on of “but look at *her* behavior” comments, which I agreed with for the most part. Although “What’s her problem? He can’t go dancing on his birthday? She’s no fun!” misses the point. It’s not the dancing on his birthday she had an issue with, it’s this friendship dynamic she’s uncomfortable with. She may be overreacting, she may not, but if he cares, he should listen to her and give a damn that she’s upset and not dismiss her feelings.

      I agree with Selena’s comment that making this “other woman” the villain is the wrong move – he’s the one she’s in a relationship with. Cut off that friendship and the BF will resent the OP and, having dodged the real issues of trust/communication/his drinking problem, another woman just like her will no doubt pop up anyway.

      Pretty messy and complicated, this one.

    • LostSailor Says:

      I am sure I will be in the minority that happily married people do not need to have good friends of the opposite sex.

      So, when you get married, you should just cut off long-held friendships of the opposite sex? That screams a bundle of insecurities. I’m sure there’s another side to that story.

      how many dudes want to go out dancing unless somebody forces them to.

      Just because you don’t know any men that like to dance doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I used to go out dancing with one of those good friends from college I mentioned. Her husband hated dancing, so after hanging out with them and enjoying a nice dinner, he’d stay home while we hit the old China Club. Both their marriage and our friendship were fine with it all.

      • coffeestop Says:

        Yes I think when you get married you should at least decrease the intensity and level of time investment in opposite sex friendships. Should you drop them? I think that is situational. Getting together once in a while not a big deal.

        In this case the insecurity you hone in on might actually be insecurity about the relationship in general and focusing in on this one incident with the female friend is a symptom. Bottom line if you are ditching your spouse on a regular basis and opting to hang out with opposite sex friends then when the other person protests or gets uncomfortable, it is not insecurity. There is a problem and when one person tells another person “hey honey you’re just insecure because I hang out with X every Saturday instead of you, that is a bit of gas lighting.This letter is about one incident and I stretched it.

        • LostSailor Says:

          In this case the insecurity you hone in on might actually be insecurity about the relationship in general and focusing in on this one incident with the female friend is a symptom….There is a problem and when one person tells another person “hey honey you’re just insecure because I hang out with X every Saturday instead of you, that is a bit of gas lighting.

          I agree that if your partner having opposite-sex friends is a problem, it is probably a symptom of more serious, deeper issues. But I think the salient item in your comment above about the situation you experienced is She was not friendly to me. Now that may have been true or it may have been projection; I wasn’t there and can’t judge.

          All I can say is that my ex and I made an effort to integrate our friends with our relationship. In the late 90s I was unemployed for a year, picking up freelance work. When the woman I used to go dancing with years later had knee surgery after her divorce, I traveled 250 miles and spent a week with her to help with the kids, whom I’d known since birth, and make sure she did her home PT, and my wife was fine with it. Of course, wife and I had solid trust in each other and my friend and wife had become friends.

          But I don’t think we’re in major disagreement. Your situation and the OP’s aren’t an issue that one should cut ties with old friends of the opposite sex in a relationship, but one where uncomfortable feelings about those friendships are indicative of other, more serious problems…

          • coffeestop Says:

            I do not think we disagree either. The existence of an opposite sex friend itself is not a problem as much as it is the content of their relationship and what priorities it gets compared to a marriage or serious LTR.

            It sounds like the situation you had where you supported a friend post surgery was something you wanted to do out of empathy and you discussed it with your wife. There were no misunderstandings with her on that topic, you were transparent. I think the problems creep in when those discussions are not conducted like sane adults without assumptions and accusations which seems to be the case with the LW.

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