How Picky Can You Get Away With Being If You’re Over 35 and Single?

Name: Jenniferhappyending
Comment: Hello,
    After 26 years of being married, I have completed the divorce process and have been attempting online dating.
 I am having problems with attracting a quality  guy.  I get quite a number of 20 and 30 year old who seem to want to hook up.  I also get men who are not on the same wavelength with me.  I get tons of men who seem to hate women or have mommy issues.  I get men who are not attractive to me.  I get men in the extremes of my age ranges 20’s and 30s or 60s and 70s.  Is it possible to find an  intelligent, successful, attractive, funny, out going man who has a good character?

I am not sure how else to meet men as when I am in public, I have never been approached by a man, say at the market.

I think I am beautiful, kind, successful, compassionate, loving and affection as well as funny. Maybe it is that I am too intelligent.
P.S. I think men see my breast and make a judgement about me.
Age: 51
City: Phoenix
State: AZ

I was watching the #SinglesinAmerica streamcast yesterday and the topic of men in their forties and older came up. A woman in the audience was talking about how all the men she was meeting in the forty and above category all seemed “damaged.” That’s a nice catch-all phrase that usually means, “doesn’t want to commit to me.”

The fact is that men in their late thirties to mid-fifties are in high demand. There’s a ton of us and a smaller segment of them. So, naturally, those guys are going to be more difficult to get. They have options. A lot of ‘em. And if they have enough, well then it’s unlikely they’ll be settling down any time soon. Why would they? Especially if they already have their kids from a previous marriage. This means that in order to get their attention, women our age have to be more proactive and a little less rigid. Scoff if you like, but if it’s a serious relationship you want, settling is a must. That doesn’t mean that you have to accept whatever comes your way or that you can’t be discerning. It just means you can’t be as discerning.

But before you try to pursue these men, you have to ask yourself one very important question:

What do I bring to the table that matters?

Bottom line? Guys don’t give a crap about your educational back ground. Trust me, your intelligence doesn’t scare them off. Nor do your heaving breasts. We all think we’re beautiful. Heck, I think I’m sexy as hell…but I’m not a guy. That means that I don’t get to decide what men should or should not find attractive. If you’re not getting approached offline, then you may not be as beautiful and wonderful as you think.Either there’s something about your demeanor that makes men think you’re closed off or not approachable or your looks don’t measure up the way you think they do.

Here’s the brutal reality. You and me and most other women in their late thirties and up? To men in their late thirties and older with their stuff together, with charm and personality and a measure of success,  we’re C-list. B-list at best.  All those stories you hear from female friends and peers complaining about that guy who faded or how hard online dating is? They’re going after the men with all the options. If they’re chasing around those guys, then it’s safe to assume other women are, too.  That’s what si creating the mass clusterfuck that we keep hearing about.

If you’re dating online, then your profile has to be red flag free and your photos need to be amazing. You’re going to have to make a concerted effort to search profiles and view the profiles of men you like. Rate them, wink at them, whatever. Just don’t message them until they return or somehow initiate interest. (View your profile, wink, message you, etc.) If you exchange messages then get them off the site as soon as possible. The last thing you want to do is give them a reason to hang around a dating site, as they’ll inevitably be contacted by someone else and their interest will wane. If you want those in demand guys, then you’re going to have to work for them. There can’t be any sitting back and waiting for them to contact you, because that will never happen. They’re being messaged by dozens and dozens of other women. You have to make a concerted effort to drop your bait in their pond.

If you’re not willing to make this kind of effort, then you’re going to have to pare down your must have list to include only the must must haves. Those are your two choices. He might be good looking but not terribly successful or might possess a super intellect but not be as attractive as you like. Concessions will have to be made. That includes maybe moving to someplace where the odds are more in your favor.

It doesn’t just magically happen for us. It’s certainly not impossible to find love, but it takes work to find something consistent and mutually beneficial at our age. It also requires that we be honest with ourselves about what we have to offer and what we can reasonably pull without breaking our back.

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88 Responses to “How Picky Can You Get Away With Being If You’re Over 35 and Single?”

  1. Brenda Says:

    I agree with Moxie completely. I married again at the age of 56 to a man who was 55. I diligently followed the guidelines mentioned above and never approached a man online other than to view their profiles and on very rare occasions “wink” at one of them.

    This served me well as I dated a number of good men and learned what was important to me in a mate and then sorted according to what my deal breakers were.

    I had great photos, but I never allowed my cleavage to do the leading, if you know what I mean. I covered them up in an attractive fashion and saved their entrance for men I dated more long term. I also learned how to weed out the players, and above all, kept a sense of humor about it and maintained a really positive outlook.

    Don’t give up; it is possible; approach online dating as a great adventure, and open your mind to men that you may not have looked long and hard at before. And continue to smile!

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  2. Grizzly Says:

    “Here’s the brutal reality. You and me and most other women in their late thirties and up? To men in their late thirties and older with their stuff together, with charm and personality and a measure of success, we’re C-list. B-list at best.”

    Absolutely agree, except I would change that last bit to “invisible, c-list at best.” I’m 35, and I almost exclusively date mid-20s women, and sometimes early-20s. I’ve never dated a woman over 28. But, I’ve spent the last 20 years lifting weights, saving money, and working my career. That gives me lots of options. So many women, our gracious host excluded of course, don’t realize that the single most important thing we look for in women is youth-n-beauty. Yes, it IS possible to find a man who is intelligent, successful, attractive, out-going, funny, and with a good character, but it usually the helps if the chick is young, slender, and charming.

    One of the best bits of advice the LW can ever take is to not dress like you’re 19. I see this all the time, and honestly its revolting. Men look at it as pathetic and delusional; its a giant flashing red neon sign that says “Drama Queen!” We respond STRONGLY to the way a woman dresses. Frequent heavy exercise would probably help a lot also.

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    • msM. Says:

      This comment is so off topic and narcissistic. Grizzly sounds like a douchebag, like the ones who have shirtless professional pictures on OkCupid and “eat clean” with their porcelain bleached teeth and sociopathic stare.

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      • Howard Says:

        Unfortunately the narcissistic douchebag still gets over. It appears on both sides of the equation with entitled princesses demanding this and that in their online profiles. I really wish these two groups would meet each other and leave the rest of us alone.

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        • C Says:

          Lol. Love it Howard!

          Sorry Grizzly, but the LW has as little interest in you as you do in her. She is looking for a mature man who is interested in a quality relationship. To her, you are a “cute kid” who is looking to have as many young hotties in spin as possible. She is way past the point of wanting “to party”, “experiment”, “tame the bad boy” or even “win the career driven eternal bachelor” like the young girls you date. You two are simply playing in different pools.

          LW – for what its worth, dating is hard for most people once they leave school and enter adulthood. For what its worth, I was largely getting approached by creepy guys 20-30 years my senior when I was online dating between the age of 26-30 and at the time I was professionally accomplished master’s degree holder and marathon runner. There will always be men (and women) who will pursue what they want, not what they can realistically get. Dont take it personally.

          Moxie is so on the money about needing to go out there and pursue what you want. Think about it as reentering the work force after being out of it for 26 years. Nobody is going to come knocking on your door looking for you. You need to first and foremost, polish your social skills and your looks and then get your butt out there.

          You said men dont approach you in public. Are you showing the men you meet at the store ANY interest? Do you smile at him? Flirt with him? Thats what interested women do. If you dont flirt with a guy, he assumes you are not interested. Rejection stings. Why would he approach a woman he thinks is going to reject him?

          Next time you see a man you find attractive, smile. Your goal is to make this man feel awesome about himself….like a brilliant, sex god, warrior. Once you’ve made your interest known, let him ask you out. Most men dont like it when women throw themselves at him.

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    • CoolDude Says:

      Haha Grizzly, I support this response. Harsh but honest.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 17

  3. Nicole Says:

    I agree that dating can be really competitive if you’re going after the good looking and super successful guys. I also think age is a much bigger factor online than it is in the “real world”. Online, it’s the first thing thing people see about you. Many guys want to date younger women, it doesn’t matter why, just that the in-demand ones can and online dating makes it easier for them.

    So focusing on men 5 -10 years older can be an easy solution if you don’t want to “settle” in other ways. I’m 34 and the average 34 year old who messages me has only shirtless selfies and every section of his profile says “lol ask me!!!” The average 40 -45 year old who contacts me is a hot lawyer or investment banker who has great taste in books and movies and plays tennis or does cross fit. Not a difficult choice!

    “I am not sure how else to meet men as when I am in public, I have never been approached by a man, say at the market.”
    I don’t usually get approached at the supermarket either. That’s because I usually run errands in sweats, a messy ponytail, and no makeup. Also I’m walking 90mph and cursing at my cell phone under my breath. None of that says “approachable”, which is fine with me, because I just want to get my shit done and go home. But the times I have stopped somewhere on my way to a date or a night out with friends – looking great and in a good mood – I have gotten attention. Same thing happens when I wear cute workout clothes to go for a run. Guys do notice if you’ve taken time to look good. I can’t say if they’re responding to the visual or the fact that I seem more like I’m interested in meeting someone, but it makes a difference.

    The other advice I would give you is to go ahead and meet some of these guys who don’t seem super attractive or smart. Some people just don’t present well online but are great in person. It’s just an hour or two of your life, and it’s good practice (I just started dating after a long marriage too – trust me, there’s a learning curve in dating!). Good luck :)

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    • K Says:

      Yes this. I’m at a similar age and do get the same type of attention in real life. Online, I also agree it helps to be age flexible, and I get a lot of guys closer to my age who may seem a tad dorkier/less well dressed, but are often smart and together. I’m just willing to take a chance. And I always dress up for my dates. I thought it was cool to wear jeans and play it chill, until my male friends (35-40) who are the types of guys I would date, said they loved it when a woman tried more. I started wearing sexy/feminine dresses even for a quick Thurs night drink and the 2nd/3rd dates went up.

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    • C Says:

      Exactly! I doubt you look as shleppy as you think when you are out running erands. I bet it has a lot more to do with how approachable you appear to be. One would think it wouldnt be the case, but its like the “hotter” the guy, the more rejection averse he is.

      I had a friend tell me this and you know what, its literally shocking how well it works. He said all I have to do is make eye contract with a guy, smile at him, and hold the gaze for a few seconds and he will come over and talk to me. It totally works! Even with super rediculously hot guys. I cant promise wedding bells will be ringing, but they will definitely come over and say hello.

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  4. Ben Iyyar Says:

    I am not so sure that men over 40 are as superficial, one dimensional, unfeeling,and shallow as both the OP and Moxie make us seem. While many of us are solely guided by our sexual dimension and thus primarily interested in young, attractive, and svelte women who are not too intelligent or even educated, the worthwhile ones among us value and appreciate mature and educated women, especially women not embittered by their experience. Most of the men my age, over 40 and then some, really do want someone nice to talk with, to hold, and to be held. In so many ways we are not so different from most women, it just seems so hard to get there.

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  5. Jesse Says:

    It’s safe to say all of us on a dating site over the age of 40 are damaged to one degree or another.

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  6. LostSailor Says:

    Moxie has great advice, though it may be hard to hear. And maybe harder to accept and follow.

    To emphasize the main points:

    No, quality men are not intimidated by your “intelligence.” Men expect that you will be able to carry on an intelligent, hopefully flirty and witty conversation, but they’re not intimidated.

    And most important, Jennifer says I get men who are not attractive to me. and Moxie counters with What do I bring to the table that matters?

    This is the pivot point, especially for women getting back into the dating pool, and most especially for women of a certain age getting back into the dating pool. As a man who is in Jennifer’s age range and who also jumped back in after a long marriage, I can safely say that the landscape is very different than it was when Jennifer was previously dating, and it takes a dose of cold reality to be successful dating under those circumstances.

    But the pivot point is the key. Jennifer is “getting” attention (online) from men she are not attractive. Since she put these men in a separate category from men who “hate women” or “have mommy issues” I take it that the just “unattractive” men are nice, conventional guys that are otherwise okay, but just “unattractive” for one reason or another. They’re just not the “quality” guys who are “intelligent, attractive (i.e., really good-looking), funny, out going, and of good character.” I’m sure this will draw ire, but Jennifer’s filters are set too high. If she can get three out of the five, she’d be ahead of the game.

    The other side of the pivot point is what Jennifer is not focusing on. She needs to add one more point to the quality-guy checklist: …and who finds me attractive and desirable. In other words, a man who wants what she brings to the table. I’ll assume Jennifer is indeed “beautiful,” kind, successful, compassionate, loving, affectionate and funny. As well as being intelligent with breasts. Those are all good things. The question is whether she’s communicating that online, in her profile and correspondence. Those are qualities that are hard to communicate outside of in-person interaction. Just stating them in a profile doesn’t cut it. All women describe themselves that way. Just writing the words aren’t enough. In fact, I would avoid using any of the words directly.

    Jennifer doesn’t say whether she’s been out on actual dates with any of these men, or whether she’s just sifting through the men who contact her. Unless she’s actually out there meeting the men she meets online, it’s just a game.

    As for getting approached by men in public, while that can be difficult for a woman in her early 50s, it’s not impossible. One thing I learned is that if I want to have any success out in public chatting up a woman, I have to be at the top of my game. I, too, used to run errands in a sweatshirt, unshaven, and in a baseball cap. No more. I go out properly dressed and groomed even for errands. You never know, so you want to be prepared. In Jennifer’s case, if she wants to be approached, she needs to be approachable.

    The bottom line is that while dating over 50 can be hard, it’s quite possible. Jennifer needs to be at the top of her game and also needs to widen her standards a little bit. She’s unlikely to get all the qualities in a man on her list. If she has to focus on one, I’d suggest going with “good character.” Without that, all the other qualities aren’t going to amount to much.

    Good luck.

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    • D Says:

      I see what you mean but I disagree with you saying “attractive (i.e., really good-looking)”. They are not the same thing. I want to be with someone I’m attracted to but he doesn’t have to be the best looking man I’ve ever seen. I just want to not be repulsed by him. I want to find him attractive and sexy or I won’t want to have sex with him. What is wrong with that? I don’t think it’s fair to equate someone saying they want someone attractive to someone being really good looking. I keep finding myself saying “attractive to me” in defense to these kinds of assumptions and I find it quiet unnecessary. Shouldn’t it be implied that attractiveness is subjective I.e. In the eye of the beholder? Would YOU want to be with someone who finds you unattractive? Lol

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      • LostSailor Says:

        I want to be with someone I’m attracted to but he doesn’t have to be the best looking man I’ve ever seen. I just want to not be repulsed by him.

        So, you’re saying that attractive usually includes good looks. I never said “the best looking man ever,” though I suppose that wouldn’t hurt. Yes, attractiveness can be subjective, but there are some standards that are pretty common across the board. But, hey, “attractive to me” can run to some odd place, but I don’t judge; whatever floats your boat.

        And of course there is not only nothing “wrong” with a man being “attractive and sexy” before you want to have sex with him. That’s pretty much baseline.

        But in the context of the OP, I don’t think I’m wrong in assessing that Jennifer, fresh out of a long-term relationship and new on the dating scene, is looking for an “attractive” man who is good looking, and perhaps very good looking…

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    • Mr. Factory Says:

      I fully second not leaving the house looking unkempt. When younger and going out to clubs frequently, you can forfeit some public opportunities to meet people in order to run errands. As my interest in clubs began to wane, those random opportunities began to take on a much bigger role in my dating. At this point, I never leave the house without looking, at least, “pretty good.”

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      • Eliza Says:

        Exactly…and let’s face it – I remember in my 20’s – going out for drinks (many more than I now consume) – and getting up the next day – bright and early – and basically being able to look quite nice – without AS much intervention – that is only natural though. As we age, we do need to take much better care of ourselves – and be more proactive about looking pulled together–even if we are going to a local Dunkin Donuts…not to mean we need to spend an hour getting ready–but to run out with your hair like Phyllis Diller – and look disheveled does speak volumes about how one values themselves.
        Take pride in your appearance, and put effort in looking your best, and presentable.

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  7. Craig Says:

    When we see the keyword “successful” when referring to a man, we all know what that translates to in woman-speak. I think it would make things a lot easier for women of any age if they didn’t measure a man’s success by the size of his wallet. You know know why men have it easier as we get older than women do? Not so much because we’re in greater demand, but rather because we don’t have a list of arbitrary demands of what our partner must be.

    Men are looking for someone they are attracted to whose company they enjoy, and that’s about it. I. Imagine if women sought just that as well. Look for just those two things and you’ll be amazed at how much easier it is to find someone. Ladies, you’ve also got to understand that beauty can trump age. For example, Demi Moore is twice the age of Lena Dunham. But if you polled men of any age who they’d prefer to be in a relationship with, whom do you think most would choose?

    Lastly, Moxie is right that at a certain point in life, women have to stop approaching dating as if they’re still in their teens and twenties. Your dream guy isn’t asking you to the prom anymore. Get up off your ass and make the first move by initiating a display of interest – and be sure you bring something worthwhile to the table yourself.

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    • msM. Says:

      As a woman I am going to “defend” the dating successful men only scenario. The reality is that most women want families. I’m 34. A man’s job will directly impact how that is going to happen so of course most women want successful men. I used to be shy about that until I realized with online dating that I could escape the usual brooklyn artist types and date better off dudes. No looking back for me. You’re only as good as your options in dating and so far I have had plenty so I can’t complain but I wish there was less moralization from men on this. it’s not that I want a partner at Goldman Sachs, but success – and generosity – makes a man attractive to me. If you want to decry women going after successful men then you have to give up on the idea that men want young and pretty. It’s the other side of the coin, no pun intended. When I look at a man in terms of dating, I am looking at a mirror of half of my future. Men see short term: they’re looking to get laid essentially and to fall in love only maybe.

      You can’t fight that, as much as you can’t fight the fact that men look for youth and beauty. You can’t complain about women wanting successful men as something “bad” while defending how “natural” it is for men to go after youth and beauty.

      The OP above needs to set her limits and expectations and to assess her actual “market”. She has to assess what kinds of offers she is getting. And to invest on a REALLY GOOD profile photo, or photos. Photos are everything online.

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      • msM. Says:

        And FYI I am open to dating men up to 15 years older than me so of course that gives me more options than usual.

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      • Eliza Says:

        I fully agree with MsM…with the exception of how important a “photo” or string of great photos is….because ONLY meeting in person–will you actually see whether the photo does them justice, and whether these so-called photos were recent/accurate in looks, and THEN – comes personality – and basically sitting back and getting a ring side seat to what comes out of a man’s mouth, their manners, charisma, etc. And the list goes on–and guess what? These men (who “bring something to the table”) – sit back and assess the situation and the woman’s looks, conversation, etc. as well. Absolutely nothing wrong with a woman WANTING a successful man, who can provide for the family – she is planning on having. That’s called dating with long-term goals, not merely going for what is aesthetically pleasing and surface – short-term interest. And I don’t fault men who judge and naturally go for youth and beauty. It’s human nature at play here.

        By the way–a very good profile – can be written by a ghost writer. So – I don’t believe everything I read. It’s called self-advertising. Some of us are better at that than others.

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      • mindstar Says:

        That may be the case MsM (wrt to women wanting families – which I assume to mean children) for women in their early to mid 30s which is your age group. But the OP is 51 years old so any hope of having children at that age is wishful thinking at best. Ditto finding a man who wants to have children with an 51 year old woman. Since having children is not a primary goal of most 50+ men (unless they’re chasing after 20 somethings) putting major emphasis on their “success level” to wit: their ability to provide for future children, is drastically reducing your options.

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      • Nicole Says:

        MsM, I totally agree. And I would add, most MEN want a family, too.

        I’d happily date a guy who was more interested in pursuing his passion than in making money, if he didn’t have or want kids. I’m fine with never having kids, if that’s how it works out, and I make enough to take care of myself.

        But if a man wants kids (or already has them and is the main provider) he either needs to be able to support them well or look for a woman who makes way more money than me. Raising children is crazy expensive and unfortunately, how much money you have does determine what your kid’s life will be like. I know money can’t fix everything, but… I teach kids from low income families, and honestly, money could fix a whole lot of things for those kids.

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        • Ben Iyyar Says:

          I got married at a later age, thirty four, and at the time I got married I worked in a profession that wasn’t too highly paid. Yet my wife and I dearly wanted a family, so we had the kids, four of them, my wife stayed at home with our sons and I worked really hard so that we would have the income to support all six of us. I came to realize years later that if I had waited until I was sure to be able to have the income to support six souls, I probably would never have gotten married while I was still young enough to even have a family, much less four children. Most of my friends did like my wife and I did, they took the leap of marriage and family without any guarantee that the money would be there and they made it happen. My wife and I did without a lot of material things, and so did our children, but we always had plenty to eat, paid our mortgage and our bills, my wife and I are more in love than ever, and our sons treat us with the greatest love, honor, and respect. I know plenty of “low income” families and most of them are the most loving, happiest, generous, and warm hearted folks you would want to meet. Success is what you make it, it is not a given.

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          • msM. Says:

            You’re not in New York, are you?

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          • msM. Says:

            I mean with an average to low salary in NYC you can’t actually live IN new york at a rental apt with enough room for 6 people without a health hazard. You’d have to be in a really far away neighborhood, with some govmt assistance. Sad but true. Since I actually want to live IN New York a man’s salary matters if I want to have even one kid.

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          • C Says:

            Oh please. There are plenty of people who live in new york city who have numerous children. Some live in subsidized housing but thems the breaks?! Thats the new york lifestyle. Most people I know live like refugees in squaler. An author and an administrator who were raising their son in a 1 bedroom apartment. A doctor and a lawyer who lived in something like a 900 sq foot apartment with their 3 daughters. Everyone here seems to struggle financially. I’m going to bet you just like find financially well off men attractive and theres nothing wrong with that.

            Truth is, success is what a lot of women find attractive in just the same way that men find youth, a pretty face and a hot body attractive. Success doesnt necessarily mean the size of a mans wallet. Lots of women find college professors hot even if they pull a $60K salary. Women like accomplished, charismatic, well respected leaders, and a mans wallet is just one measure of that. Plenty of women date a talented musician or artist or actor or scientist without asking to see his financial portfolio.

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      • Craig Says:

        The reality is that most women want families. I’m 34. A man’s job will directly impact how that is going to happen so of course most women want successful men. – MsM

        Why is the economic vitality of the family the responsibility of the male partner? Plenty of women have no problem being the stay at home parent while their partner is the breadwinner. Why can’t those roles be reversed in the 21st century? If you want the big house and BMW in the garage, why not work to provide that yourself and be happy with a man willing to stay home with the babies?

        I’ll tell you why – because what will your friends think? You need a affluent guy for social proof. A way to show people “look what I could get”. Men want pretty and in shape – they believe youth is where they are most likely to find both. But plenty of older women who didn’t let themselves go can hang with their twentysomething counterparts on both counts – and you’ll find such women are still desired at any age.

        I don’t fault women for wanting whatever they want. If some want an affluent guy instead of a guy making an honest living trying to make the world a better place by working for a non-profit charity? That’s fine. But then don’t complain about the shitstorm of competition you get for the so-called “prime” guys. Own your choices.

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        • msM. Says:

          Since you have asked, I would *choose* a better-earning partner, yes. No I don’t have a BMW in the garage and I am not closed to meeting men who earn less, ALL of my past boyfriends have earned less.

          Before I decided I wanted to settle down and possibly have a child, this didn’t matter to me. The burden of childcare rests on the woman. I have dated plenty of poor guys/creative guys they just happen to be generally more insecure and demanding than successful guys, exactly because they haven’t “arrived” quite yet.

          I don’t want the role reversal because I opted out of the corporate world. A few years ago I decided to step away from it all, I am not competitive by nature but I have a lot of feminine qualities. Men like that appreciate women like me, who can take care of them in other ways.

          Something happened in my life, after years of extreme shyness and depression I started online dating last year and realized I am actually popular and therefore in the position to choose from available options.

          Secondly, I “came out” as a kinky/dominant woman (I am “vanilla” in public and “kinky” in private) and in that world, there are so few naturally dominant women (who don’t do it for money) that I get the pick of the top men: attorneys, MDs, tech entrepreneurs, etc…so actually, I do have choices. Because of low self-esteem and my past experiences of settling for less, I ended up dating creative guys that were not ambitious and I would always be frustrated, because not only did I make more money but I felt like I had to baby them constantly, as they were moody and insecure.

          Something happens in your head when you realize you have concrete options, dating-wise: you actually exercise them. Once I realized the types of men that were interested in me, and what they were offering, I started to actively select only the “best” ones based on what was on offer. Yes i am “owning my choices” literally.

          I sense anger from your point of view and I encourage you to find out why that is. If you are a guy working at a job that pays less and you want to be a house-husband, that’s totally fine, there are plenty of corporate women who can provide the lifestyle for the family. You have to be honest and actually state that publicly on your dating profile so that you will attract the arrangement you are after. I have lived enough to know what I want. I am not blaming others while keeping the “good person” façade.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 8 Thumb down 11

          • Speed Says:

            So when a guy presents a cogent analysis, your response is “You mad, bro?”

            WTF?

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 4

        • Lucy Says:

          why don’t you become young and slender?

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

      • LostSailor Says:

        As a woman I am going to “defend” the dating successful men only scenario…success – and generosity – makes a man attractive to me. If you want to decry women going after successful men then you have to give up on the idea that men want young and pretty.

        No need to defend it, it’s just a fact of the nature of most women. Most women are going to find–all other things being equal–a successful man who is “generous” in sharing the fruits of his success more attractive than other men. And it’s in the nature of most men to prefer women who either are or at least appear young and pretty. Where the problem with “decrying” arises is when women decry men who prefer younger (or younger-looking) and prettier women while defending wanting a “successful” man. But by the same token, men who “decry” as you describe are equally clueless.

        But being a “natural” impulse doesn’t mean it’s a successful strategy. Often it’s not, because there will always be a more successful man out there for women and there will always be a younger, hotter woman out there for men–even if it’s only a potential option in their heads.

        So Craig was on to something when he wrote Men are looking for someone they are attracted to whose company they enjoy, and that’s about it. I. Imagine if women sought just that as well. Imagine, indeed.

        He’s also right when he says Ladies, you’ve also got to understand that beauty can trump age. Which means, in essence, make the most of what you got. The same goes for men…

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        • msM. Says:

          I think there is something disingenuous about men’s positions here. It’s like that famous study from Okcupid that say that while men state preference for a range of ages on their profile, they tend to only email the youngest/”hottest” ones available in private.

          Clearly there is a gap here. Men only need an “attractive partner” they get along with. That is taken as “natural”. How do you explain then that there are so fewer men interested in women their own age as they get older? Is it because they are really nice and only care about their internal qualities?
          I am just saying this to get to the bottom of it.

          I have been very honest in saying that I will be more into the men who are doing well to settle down with. Yet men have a really hard time admitting that they only consider pretty, young faces for dating.

          You, for instance, do you email women your own age with the intention to settle down? What is your actual honest answer?

          I may email a man back and forth but if I know he is not settled in his career I will end it. Because when it comes down to it, if I decide to have a child and a family, I am going to need a decent health care plan and I may want to be a stay-at-home mom for a few years. It is ideal if I don’t have to be the one providing everything. Last summer I was really open and I dated a ton of guys. 30s, 40s, some divorced, none of them doing super well. I didn’t care.

          Now that I decided that I want to settle down my focus changed completely. This may sound really harsh to you guys, but the reality is that as a woman time is not on my side. As I get older I will have less choices, so while I still can I have to very very wise about exercising them.

          If that offends you, too bad. That is the not-so-polite reality we all deal with. it’s not that I am looking for Donald Trump here, but someone with a good, solid, stable career he enjoys. I honestly don’t care much about looks or weight. As long as he is sexually submissive (my sexual orientation is “dominant”) and a good, reliable provider, I am willing to take him seriously for a start. In the world that I am in now because the ratio of men (s) to women(D) is so high (about 50-1) I have advantages that are very unusual, like having a pick of very successful men. Because I am the rare dominant woman that is available for a long term relationship. This isn’t the scenario for most women but still I am willing to be honest about this.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            MsM, there’s nothing disingenuous going on here. You’re talking cross-objectives. Or just self-interest.

            Indeed, men will message the “younger/hotter” profiles online. And that’s completely natural. Sorry.

            How do you explain then that there are so fewer men interested in women their own age as they get older? Is it because they are really nice and only care about their internal qualities?

            No. Men are interested in younger women, even if that’s relative, as an initial attractive quality. The “internals” only a matter after that initial attraction.

            I have been very honest in saying that I will be more into the men who are doing well to settle down with.

            That’s your first mistake. Attraction first, considering settling down later. If your opening statement is about “settling down” it’s not going to filter out the players; it’s a challenge. And a reveal of a mercenary nature.

            You, for instance, do you email women your own age with the intention to settle down?

            I’ve and dated women my own age, older, and younger. All met online. Most were pleasant, but none were keepers. I have no idea if want to “settle down” and will only know that after I’ve established a relationship. Then again, I’m older than you, and settling down is less of a concern.

            But MsM, you have an agenda. You aren’t looking for a partner and husband, you’re looking for a sexually submissive man who will be a good provider for the children you want, no matter whether he’s actually someone you love.

            Frankly, I hope you are not successful. Because what you want is a huge amount of suck. You want to suck this potential guy dry. It doesn’t offend me. It just make me sad for any poor guy you manage to trap…

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 4

      • ATWYSingle Says:

        it’s not that I want a partner at Goldman Sachs, but success – and generosity – makes a man attractive to me.

        I’m sorry, but what does this have to do with wanting a family? And did you say that you want to live IN NYC? So, you want a man who can afford to raise a family and live in NYC and you’re really trying to get us to believe that you’re not entitled? You want the mirror to your half? Do you make 200K- 300K a year? Because that’s what it would cost to live in NYC and raise, say, two children. You want a guy who can provide you with and support a lifestyle, not a family.

        How do you explain then that there are so fewer men interested in women their own age as they get older?

        Because they want kids but don’t want to feel pressured to make that happen ASAP. There’s less pressure dating a 28 year old, than a 34 year old.

        Because when it comes down to it, if I decide to have a child and a family, I am going to need a decent health care plan and I may want to be a stay-at-home mom for a few years.

        Aren’t you adorable. Any particular reason why you can’t pay for a healthcare plan? I mean, you’re so established and settled and together that I would think it would be easy for you. I mean, you’re looking for your mirror image, so wouldn’t that imply that you make some serious coin and can afford your posh Blue Cross/Blue Shield Insurance? Seriously, could you be more out of touch with the world around you? Health insurance is a LUXURY nowadays. Many companies don’t even offer it anymore or have cut back on their coverage.

        As I get older I will have less choices, so while I still can I have to very very wise about exercising them.

        And the time to realize that is not when you’re 34. Just because you’ve finally decided that you’re now sick of the merry go round and the impressive dinners and dates doesn’t mean that your whims now should be accommodated.

        As long as he is sexually submissive (my sexual orientation is “dominant”)

        Oh, well as long as you’re open minded and not being too particular about what you want. So he should make 200K, live in Manhattan and want to raise kids in Manhattan AND be submissive?? Good luck, sister.

        In the world that I am in now because the ratio of men (s) to women(D) is so high (about 50-1) I have advantages that are very unusual, like having a pick of very successful men. Because I am the rare dominant woman that is available for a long term relationship. This isn’t the scenario for most women but still I am willing to be honest about this.

        Where’d you get that data? KinkyStatsForU.com? What are you even talking about? If you’re so in demand then how come you haven’t been able to find the guy you’re looking for?

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don’t have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.

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        • msM. Says:

          Hi I got that data re:ratio from my own experience and hearing from people in the “FLR”/D/s world. It’s a well known thing that there aren’t as many dominant women as there are submissive men, and that the majority of (sexually) submissive men are in positions of power (attorneys, MDs, wall street guys, etc…). I am not making this up. This (ratio & the amount of outwardly powerful men) is much more common in the D/s world than in the regular dating world, for dominant women at least.
          See Moxie the issue is choice, not entitlement necessarily. If you had a choice of men wouldn’t you pick the most successful? Also, I am open to dating older men. (15+ years).
          I am not in NYC now ( I live elsewhere part of the year) I will be back in the Summer but I have been talking to tons of ppl and have met some. I don’t make as much as the men that want to date me, no, but if i can, I will choose the man who can be a good provider. Why is that a bad thing? I am being 100% honest.
          The relationships I seek have an overt imbalance of power, sexually and otherwise, where the man keeps the power outside the home and the woman “wears the pants” and takes the sexually active role in private, and that includes the man “pampering” and “spoiling” the woman. This is not apparent to outsiders by the way, but all of this is made explicit, sometimes with an actual contract, at the beginning of a committed relationship. A lot of men that are powerful in public enjoy this sort of dynamic in private. It is what it is. Many, if not most, submissive men actually get off on treating women like that. it’s not manipulated, it’s overt.

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          • HammersAndNails Says:

            I have to agree. Anytime you get away from vanilla the ratio of men to women always skews male when it comes to visible options.

            The same way Ok cupid would skew overwhelmingly male if you exclude people “looking for a relationship” and “people looking for marriage”

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

      • Howard Says:

        MrsM. This is how it works. The demand for that, wealth, puts guys off. They know women want that. They just don’t want to feel overt pressure about it. Clever women don’t need to say it, infer it or demand it. They know to say thank you, in a way that makes a man feel special and wonderful.

        Gold-digger is a word mostly used by rich guys, as in Kanye West’s song, not regular guys. Think about that for a moment.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

    • Yvonne Says:

      Craig, interesting that you talk about how “relaxed” mens’ standards are, and then in the next paragraph, emphasize the importance of a woman’s youth. “Men are looking for someone they are attracted to whose company they enjoy, and that’s about it.” Well, women are looking for that too, but instead of emphasizing youth, some women also place a value on a man’s success level. And plenty of men who go after younger women won’t be able to find one who wants to seriously date him.

      And to Jennifer, maybe you need to try a different dating site. I’ve had the problems you talk about more on the free dating sites then on the paid ones.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  8. Tinker Says:

    Here is what I see as the main issue: trying to chase guys who aren’t interested in settling down. Lots of guys with options *do* want to settle down either because they’ve had fun running through their options and want something different now or because they were never big on running around in the first place. Moxie’s point about making sure you are bringing your best to the table is very true. But I think starting with the mindset that desirable men don’t want relationships is dangerous and leads women to settling for less than they want and then no one is happy/satisfied, the man that was ‘settled’ for included.

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    • Michelle Says:

      This is a great point to bring up. One of my friends is a handsome 38 year old, surfer/ PHd Geneticist who has the option to sleep around with as many younger or older women as he wants, but according to him, he’s ready to find the right one to settle and start a family with. Of course his is enjoying the privilege he has of dating around, but he claims to be ready to give it all up and is definitely open to a woman in her mid 30’s (if she’s attractive enough of course). He’ll make the right girl very happy because he’s a catch and he’s commitment oriented. He gives me hope that there are more like him out there.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

      • mimimi Says:

        Wow. A 38-year old man is finally ready to settle down… this guy is by no means a catch, he is over the hill. For most men it is going downhill really fast after 40. Only two good years left. What kind of woman would voluntarily expose herself to this?

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  9. Howard Says:

    The good ones get grabbed up early. And as we age we get more refined and demanding. That twin demon is our undoing. Guys also have a tough time finding that special woman too. The secret then has to do with becoming that special woman.

    That type of advice never goes over well with people, who imagine themselves to be perfect. The truth is that we all have room for improvement. It’s easy to imagine strategies are improvements, but they are not. Real improvement requires heavy lifting.

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    • Tinker Says:

      See, I don’t believe that the ‘good’ ones get grabbed early; I believe the people that want to be coupled earlier in life and make it a priority do so, and some of those folks are good and some aren’t.
      And when some of those early in life unions dissolve, some of those good people enter the dating market again. There are always ‘quality’ people around, and not all of them need to be wrestled into relationships. Agree that being your best self always helps, whether you are a man or woman.

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      • Eliza Says:

        I agree with Tinker. Being a woman in her mid 40’s, and making fitness a priority, amongst other things…it’s important to understand that for men who are in their 40’s – who may want more children, a woman a year or two younger than them may not be viewed as the best prospects for bearing children. And unfortunately, a woman in her 40’s or late 30’s who already has children (young especially) not teenagers – will also come with a lot of compromising in terms of time and childcare issues. I agree you can’t have it all. But men who are successful in their careers – who do not have kids, are in their late 30’s, early 40’s or perhaps even late 40’s – who want children, may have options–and those women in their early to mid-30’s are probably viewed as the best “prospects”. And yes, physical attractiveness, youth does matter. I occasionally get approach by much younger men – in person and on line–but it’s obvious where the motive lies. For me, having a kind heart, and integrity are important…but we are all somewhat shallow initially–physical connection in the very beginning needs to be existent…and it’s harder to find as both genders age. A person can age very gracefully–and take the utmost care of themselves…but there is still “ageism” out there. Once that conversation of age surfaces…some of us do make judgments based on that. Nothing wrong with that–if it’s based on our needs, starting a family, for instance.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

        • Lisa Pretty 37 yrs old, won't go for a 50 yr old man Says:

          I disagree, women in their early to mid to late thirties are already starting to age,not only women in their late thirties, many women in their late thirties look better and younger or more youthful than their counterparts who are only a few years older than them. Many women and men who don’t want children appear the same age or give or take a few 5 years or so and it is all relative. Ageism is promoted by jealousy of the opposite sex towards women and men who take better care of themselves than their younger counterparts. Ageism starts from 30+ not from 36+ but earlier as my friends and colleagues have experienced it.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

          • LostSailor Says:

            I disagree, women in their early to mid to late thirties are already starting to age

            Your agreement is not required. And “ageism” in dating is both nonsensical and incoherent. You can’t legislate or force attraction.

            It’s not important if you agree whether women in their 30s are “aging” (by definition if they’re still alive, they’re aging), what’s important is whether the men they want to attract think they are aging. You don’t get a vote. The best you can do is take good care of yourself and hope for the best…

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

      • Howard Says:

        OK, let’s define good. For me that’s a lot of things that may not apply to the next person. But there are some consistent attributes that most agree on. Some of these are:

        Good looks.
        Exciting and charming
        Good financial situation, not as critical a demand for women to have but definitely something that counts heavily in a guy’s favor.
        Great attitude, willingness to see the other person’s perspective.
        Loyal, dependable and kind

        That list could be longer, but I think that covers more than 90% of what counts as the good ones. Finding someone that hits all those things just tends to get harder as more get taken out of the available pool. You may find that wealthy good-looking charming man, but he may be lacking in the attitude, kindness and loyalty.

        The other big elephant in the room, is that when you do actually get a guy that comes close, he in turn, is demanding a woman that does well on that very list. As guys age, they no longer casually excuse any bad behavior in women like they did, when they were younger. That is an adjustment that many women never make, and they wonder why they can’t attract that high quality guy.

        Yes, he is out there among the over forty guys, but he is not tolerating the things women could do, and get away with, when they were 25.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Howard–and we all define “special” differently. Yes? What is special to you may not be to the next person. A friend of mine the other evening was in such awe over a man she met – who went on and on about his career at a reputable consulting firm…I was involved in the conversation. “He was so successful” – she gleamed.

      To me, ranting about one’s accomplishments is not very impressive. A prefer a man that doesn’t need to advertise he went to the Wharton School of Business. I am more impressed with manners, and a sense of modesty. Yes, eventually I will find out you went to some ivy league.

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      • mindstar Says:

        Your friend likely puts too much emphasis on the man’s resume rather than his character. She brags about his academic/professional accomplishments because she knows many WOMEN are impressed by that. The opposite is NOT true. Damn few men tell their male friends how turned on they are by their girlfriend’s PhD.

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        • Eliza Says:

          No Mindstar, but I guarantee you – when it’s guy’s night out – if he has a girlfriend–he will “brag” about how beautiful/attractive and “young” his girlfriend or fiance/wife is. You see–as someone else on this blog commented–each gender places emphasis where it matters most – overall. Each person is different obviously. but in general – MOST men seem to put a lot of importance on “looks” – where MOST women place a lot of emphasis on “career success” or being accomplished. I would love to have both in my partner – but know that may not be realistic, however, what I DON’T find appealing is a man that is egotistical about his accomplishments and goes on and on about his resume. Not impressed with some that “self-absorbed”–but I do understand why some men may have the need to act like peacocks. And hence, the reason by our anti-aging and cosmetic procedures and beauty industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. It’s all about supply and demand. It IS what sells. Youthfulness (in looks/body/mind) is universally appealing, we ALL want it for ourselves and in our partners. Actually in some social circles – I have heard some men “brag” about their girlfriend’s career accomplishments too.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

          • Craig Says:

            You’ve got it so wrong Eliza. I’ve been a man for 44 years now. And I have yet to have any of my male friends brag about how young and hot their partner is past their teenage years. We’ll get compliments on how beautiful our woman is, and we graciously say thank you as we beam with pride. But we don’t treat a woman we actually care about as some sort of trophy.

            We’re more likely to brag to our buddies about how cool she is and how she’s not a pain in the ass or a psycho. That’s what our buddies really want to know. Anyone with their shit together can bag a hot chick – what really impresses our buddies is finding one who’s got her shit together.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Have to agree with Craig. You’re “guarantee” is worthless. When guys outside of their teens have a guy’s night out, none of them–I guarantee—are “bragging” about their girlfriends. The other guys might mention that their GFs are hot, but any man that has to “brag” about it would be seen as a weak idiot.

            But I have heard women do this, subtly, when out on a girl’s night out.

            And MOST men will put an emphasis on looks–as an initial attraction (as well as on-going) factor, it’s really only the starting point.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

          • HammersAndNails Says:

            Not to mention that if you have to tell your friends how good looking your girl is, she obviously isnt that good looking. Just saying….

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

  10. Chianti-Z Says:

    I think that OP has to be honest with who she is online. What I’m trying to say is that she has to let her uniqueness shine through her profile in order to attract the right men. I do hope that she is fit and takes care of herself, this only helps.

    After reading all these comments I’m thinking how hard dating is at any age.

    Good Luck!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  11. D. Says:

    You can be as picky as you like in dating, but you have to also steel yourself for the fact that you may not find what you’re looking for for a very, very long time. If you’re ok with that, and are ok with being alone — truly ok, I mean — then go ahead and shoot for the moon. Just accept the risks inherent in doing so.

    That said, I think two things can help, regardless of the stage of life you’re at, if you’re trying to find a serious relationship (or at least if that’s your ultimate goal).

    First, really closely examine what it is you want. I’m not just talking about “must haves.” I’m talking about absolutely essential and cannot live withouts. To my way of thinking, this typically will boil down to core personality characteristics, far more so than looks. They’ll also have less to do with surface-level accomplishments (e.g. “Did he go to an Ivy League school, or a third-tier school?”) and more to do with personal qualities (e.g., “Is he intelligent and intellectually curious, even if he isn’t as educated as I am?”).

    When it comes to looks, I think people tend to place far more emphasis on this than is realistic for long-term happiness. Looks are important, of course, but looks are a threshold issue. Realistically, and especially long-term, someone only needs to be good looking enough to grab your interest and make you think “Yeah, I could see myself sleeping with them if everything else works out.” Past that, attraction will change over time, both as their appearance changes physically, and as you become more emotionally drawn towards them.

    The same can be said for the word “successful.” This, too, is a “threshold” concept. Someone really only needs to be successful enough to do the things you enjoy doing and to not be sweating paying the bills, living paycheck to paycheck, etc. I’d say “financially stable” is a far more realistic baseline, and as with “attractive” that probably means a much wider slice of the pie.

    So, when I see Jennifer write that she wants an “attractive” guy, and can’t seem to find that, my guess is that she’s looking for a guy who is far more physically attractive than he actually needs to be. Particularly if he’s also intelligent, successful, funny, etc. Same with “successful,” for that matter. If you’re able to enjoy going out with him picking up the tab sometimes (’cause that won’t last forever, either), then does he really need to be pulling down however many figures you have in your head? Does he need to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company or a spine surgeon or whatever?

    When you start looking at what you want, you have to ask yourself whether what you want is something truly substantive, or whether you’re holding out for extra bragging rights. Is saying “AND he’s a DOCTOR” really that much more important to you, or can you find happiness with a guy who’s financially stable, but doesn’t have a brag-worthy job? What’s more important to you in the last analysis?

    Second, let go a little bit and just be open to having fun. Because dating should be fun. Sure, it can get tiring at times, or you may find yourself overwhelmed and craving a night at home in your sweats watching guilty-pleasure TV/movies, but on the whole, it should at least be fun evening-to-evening. If you are so hell-bent on finding something serious, or finding the “right” guy or whathaveyou, though, that ends up making it a LOT less fun, because every time that doesn’t end up happening, you end up a little bit more disappointed and frustrated than the last time it didn’t happen.

    I found I had a lot more success, and enjoyed myself a hell of a lot more, when I was less focused on outcomes beyond “I’m gonna have a nice night out.” If that’s your goal, especially rather than “I’m gonna find the perfect unicorn,” then dating itself can be a hell of a lot more enjoyable and rewarding.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Very well said–exactly on point with how I perceives things too. Everything is relative I say. And as the saying goes–and I fully believe – “All that glitters isn’t gold”! Which means, what you see before you isn’t necessarily – what will always be – and once you start scratching the surface…and digging deeper into whom someone is – you will see both the good and not so good. If you can live with the cons and the pros do outweigh the cons, you may have just found “perfection” in a sense…for you. Not perfect for anyone–but perfect for you. That is not called “settling” – to me, that’s being able to identify compatibility below the surface/aesthetics. But it does involve being able to give someone a chance, and not judge them based on their age, weight, title, corner office, or educational background. No perfect unicorn out there.

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    • Goldie Says:

      Hear, hear.

      I currently look at guys I meet from three dimensions: 1) personality – how it fits together, or clashes, with mine; 2) intelligence – like you said, “intelligent and intellectually curious”, and 3) attractiveness (I consider myself lucky in that, if everything is great in the personality and intelligence departments, any guy that’s not terribly repulsive physically will eventually look like a hot stud to me). Currently my priorities are in this exact order. I used to put intelligence first and personal compatibility after it, and I’m afraid that approach came to bite me in the rear in my last relationship. So I’m going to try to reverse the order and see if that helps.

      With that said, brag-worthy credentials do tend to get in the way. Even if you’re not looking for them explicitly, when you run into a guy in whom brag-worthy qualities are present, they will blind you to his flaws if you’re not careful. Kind of like in the letter from a week or two ago, where the LW totally lost her cool when she met an Ivy League prof. There but for the grace of God… etc etc. It is terribly difficult to make an extra effort and not let yourself be drawn to that stuff on its own merits, but that’s what we need to do in these situations.

      “I found I had a lot more success, and enjoyed myself a hell of a lot more, when I was less focused on outcomes beyond “I’m gonna have a nice night out.” If that’s your goal, especially rather than “I’m gonna find the perfect unicorn,” then dating itself can be a hell of a lot more enjoyable and rewarding.”

      I made the same switch a few years ago, with the same results (and with an added benefit of meeting more interesting people who, even if we didn’t work out as a couple, could remain in my life as friends or business connections). One thing about the “I’m gonna find the perfect unicorn” approach, that used to ruin dating for me when I had that attitude, is that when you do meet someone who, on the surface, looks sorta kinda like your perfect unicorn, all your judgement goes out the window. I found myself overlooking a guy’s serious personality flaws if he’d checked off 7 out of 10 items on my list, because I was afraid I’d never find another one with his credentials. I found myself getting more invested in those guys, as well. After two dates, I’d be holding on to him for dear life, and stressing out over the possibility of doing something stupid and losing that perfect dude. And once you have that attitude, you OF COURSE do something stupid and lose the (not really all that perfect for you) dude. I once was depressed for a month over someone I’d gone on three dates with. That was the wake-up call that made me change my attitude.

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  12. New_NYC_Resident Says:

    Great post by Moxie – spot on!

    I’ll add a caveat – as a guy who has lived around the country, i can tell you that prospects for men in their 30s to 50s vary greatly, depending on what city you live in.

    e.g. I lived in Boston through my late 30s and early 40s. It was a horror show for meeting any women of any age. The ratio was much more in favor of women (and boston women are horrible bit***s, but that’s another story). When i moved to NYC, it was like the gates of heaven opened up – i’ve never dated and slept with more quality women, of all age ranges.

    So obviously the same applies for women – your success will vary greatly depending on what city/area you live in. I remember seeing a USA Today story with a map of ratios – and generally speaking, the east coast cities had more women to men, and west coast cities had more men to women.

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    • Eliza Says:

      I either should consider moving to Boston – though, I do not care for the cold – OR the west coast than. And as for Craig’s reply to my post–he needs to learn to read–since I wrote “MOST” men, that means, MOST, not all men rave about how young their partner is.
      I have overheard groups of men conversate–and can attest to what topics are discussed in the absence of their girlfriends/wives. Craig also goes on some soapbox – about stating that women who want certain material things – should not demand, but ALSO contribute. I agree–nobody is suggesting that a woman is entitled to it all–or that she shouldn’t contribute to the lifestyle that she would like. What some women have stated is that they seek a partner that is financially responsible enough to be able to provide – for the family she is looking to have, because YES it’s expensive–moreso in locations like NY! A woman that has a profession, and is financially stable is going to seek the SAME in her partners–and vice versa. What is complicated about such a concept?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 4

      • msM. Says:

        Yes, Eliza, right on. This is actually a simple concept. I realized a while ago, that I can’t have it all and I am not trying to. But if I want to have kids, I am better off with a husband that can provide a better living situation so that I can stay with the kid for a few years, than in a situation where I will not be able to do that. it’s quite simple. If I were an attorney, MD, or essentially had a *very* high-paying profession that would not matter to me so much and that is why I seek someone who does have a high-earning job.

        That is simple math right there. Some men here are making this to be some sort of morally corrupt crime. Men should truly face this, as much we women face the fact that universally looks matter to men much more than they matter to women. We like successful guys and that will influence us when selecting a long-term partner. Deal with it. Men are impressed when women are “models” or whatever, we are supposed to find that normal – the same way that we are impressed when a well-to-do generous man is interested in us: he can assist in the long-term propagating of the species.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

        • New_NYC_Resident Says:

          I agree. So many guys get all offended at the slightest hint of a woman that wants a partner with money. I’ve always viewed those guys as just bitter.

          I have no problem at all with a woman who values (or even cares about it as her #1 factor) a guy with money. Gold-diggers have never bothered me.

          The reason? I want a hot, young woman, and admit that i’m superficial. So i have no problem with a woman who wants what she wants.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 4

          • msM. Says:

            THANK YOU!!!!!

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

          • Speed Says:

            No guy here is saying “money doesn’t matter.” I chase it all day long and want to earn as much of it as I can. But at the same time, just as most women don’t want to be a throwaway doll for men, most men (again, at least outside the PUA/Red Pill community, where they may see dating as much more transactional: I pay for some fancy meals and entertainment, you get undressed) don’t want to be walking ATMs for women.

            It’s ridiculous to say that men who feel this way are “mad” or “bitter.” It’s just a matter of not wanting to waste time and money that way. “You mad, bro?” is a weak argument.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

          • msM. Says:

            Also it’s interesting that there are no negative words for men who go after models or really young girls. We women are raised to have a normalized understanding of that. Just as men will ask out a prettier girl over a more average one,
            Whereas women who value successful partners are “gold-diggers” and bad people in general. I will prefer a guy who is successful at his profession than one with a dead-end job. It’s a double-standard that is tinged with moral undertones. Also I have an Ivy-League (graduate) degree so it’s not like success is completely abnormal to me.

            Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 2

          • C Says:

            There are negative words for men who go after very young women/models. They are called craddle robbers, a walking mid-life-crisis, emotionally immature, shallow, etc… People ask them about their “daughter”. When my former college professor married his student, or when my former college classmate left his wife for a teenaged former student, we all raised an eye brow. And didnt many of us snicker just a little when the ancient Larry King married some girl in her 30s or when Hugh Heffner has his “heart broken” by some 20 year old gold digger? “Yeah, I’m sure they are together because they have so much in common. Lolol.”

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          • New_NYC_Resident Says:

            @C
            yup, i’m shallow…guilty as charged

            But it has nothing to do with midlife crisis or emotional immaturity. It’s biology – i’m horny, and like young women in their 20s. I liked women in their 20s when i was 32, and i’ll still like them when i’m 62.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 9

          • Eliza Says:

            Hi New Resident…well I don’t think MsM or I are actually suggesting or agreeing that women should be “gold diggers”, what we are both stating is that we want “financially responsible” men who can equally contribute towards future long-term goals, like a home, and children. By that, it doesn’t necessarily mean a man making say $250K that squanders it on drinking and gambling…but a man that is employed in a field where 1) he truly enjoys being in, is ambitious to the point where he does want more out of life or in the least similar interests as we do – like travelling, owning a nice home, being able to provide a good life (within our means) for children, should that be a priority, for example. I am not proposing that women should, kick up their well-predicured feet, and not lift a finger…that would be a double-standard. But yes, it’s very comforting to know that if the time came for a woman to give birth – that she has that option to perhaps spend the 1st year or so with her newborn baby – without being stressed out over finances. It’s a nice option, that may not be available if a man is living paycheck to paycheck. Sorry–but that’s reality. And hey–most men who DO want kids, will completely overlook an older woman – since they pre-judge and want a woman that is “young” and “healthy” enough to bear his children. Understood. Judgment there exists – and it’s a two-way street. That’s reality. Perception can be reality. And there is no changing economics or biology. You can’t squeeze water out of a rock, and unfortunately, the same goes for age and what one can do at various age ranges and economic statuses.

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          • C Says:

            Sorry nyc_resident. I wasnt picking on you. We like what we like. I was only contradicting MsM’s comment that men who go after young girls or models dont get berated for it. Sure they do.

            We are all shallow because attraction is a fickle enigmatic biotch. You like the youngsters, I like me some muscle bound aryans and MsM likes herself a fat stock portfolio. The next guy might like big brown eyes, and the next girl might think a PhD is sexy. Pretty sure none of us are digging all that deep here.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Yeah, I’m ok with it. Every guys knows women value income. If you didn’t think about the implications of your career on your love life, that’s your fault.

          Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  13. Speed Says:

    Craig is dropping a ton of knowledge here today. I’m 48, and since reaching 18, I’ve heard a total of maybe 2-3 guys brag about “how hot my girl is.” The very phrase sounds juvenile and insecure. If a guy brags about his woman, it’s how “easygoing she is,” or “what a great mother to my kids she is” or how “she’s got my back, especially when things get rough.” I’ve heard a ton of guys say this, on three different continents.

    This is what guys care about, at least outside the PUA/Red Pill community.

    As to money, if a guy is attractive, successful (as in able to afford a Manhattan apartment spacious “enough for +6 people” as MsM wrote), fit, and single, then basically he’s about in the top 1% of men. Now, if a woman can truly play (as in a relationship/marriage, not just 1-2 rolls in the hay and a fade) at that level, by all means go for it. After all, someone has to win the lottery.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

    • msM. Says:

      Speed, this is more about dating – NOT about people who are actually married. Men do like attractive women and as far as *dating* goes women will gravitate towards more successful guys.

      This happened to me when a few years back I had a profile on Match with a simple picture with no make-up on, a picture I felt showed my personality with no layers, or “who I really am”. No responses of note. A few emails a week from uninteresting people.

      3 years later, I join Okcupid, use a main picture of a close-up with make-up and soft-lighting: 400 people favoriting me in the end and 20 emails per day. Now you tell me that looks don’t matter and that men care about character…yeah maybe once they’re already married, until then, they seem to use their eyes a lot.

      Do you email a lot of ugly women because they will be “good mothers”? I bet you don’t. You probably contact women you find attractive because you see that as “normal”. Let’s be realistic here, OK?

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 7

      • C Says:

        Like someone else said, dating a hot chick isnt hard for an attractive man to do. Being an attractive woman is nothing more than a barrier to entry to dating an attractive man, but he wont marry you simply because you are easy on the eyes. I promise that the average cute barrista at starbucks gets less interest from men then Marissa Mayer or Mina Kunis or the hot girl who spends her weekends doing charity work. The “hot” part is only a barrier to entry. Think of it like a Harvard MBA. It will get you the interview but it wont get you the job.

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  14. Nathan Says:

    The main message I hear Moxie saying is put real effort into making a good profile and then be realistic. Sounds totally smart to me. And yet, you still have a few women arguing in favor of finding men with both high end looks and high end salaries, which is about as realistic as the average middle aged men dreaming of finding a hot 25 year old who “wants” him.

    As D points out, many place emphasis on the wrong things, thinking they will bring happiness. Looks are fleeting, and financial success is ever more tricky to sustain these days. Plenty of research has been done showing that more money doesn’t equal a happier, more quality life. One thing I notice often are people dating financially successful people complaining that their partber has no time and isn’t really there for them. There are trade offs no matter what.

    Overall, I thibk dating over 30 is just hard. Some women seem to think older men with their shit together have it easy, but really that’s pretty much not the case. The men or women who have it easy are in a tiny minority. The rest of us have to work at it. But we seem prone to chasing after the wrong things. If folks spent more time looking for quality of character and less time obsessing over near perfect looks or salaries, dating would be easier.

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  15. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Wow, breaking news: Anonymous Internet Woman Admits that She Prefers Rich Men. Hijacks Thread.

    Story at 11.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

    • msM. Says:

      lol indeed

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

    • msM. Says:

      News at 11:30: Double-standard confirmed:
      men revolt when presented with the evidence that they will be judged for their careers by women looking to start a family while consistently choosing younger women to date over women their own age.

      Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 4

      • John Says:

        MsM,
        You have your ideal fantasy man- one who will provide for you and your kids so you don’t have to work. And not one who merely provides- one who provides and still has plenty left over for luxury things.

        That’s all well and good. But here is the million dollar question- what exactly do you bring to the table to land a guy like that? As Moxie would say, are you a contender for that dude? Because I bet there are many women who want a guy like that and the competition will be tough for you to land him.

        The smart money is betting that you wont be able to pull it off.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

        • msM. Says:

          I am dominant sexually. VERY hard to find. My “niche’ is only submissive men who have good jobs – he does not have to be a millionaire. I am not interested in “vanilla” successful guys. This might come as a complete shock to you, but the ratio really is on the side of women on this sexual subculture I am part of. And there is an unusually high percentage of successful men within the submissive men community. Men who have this orientation live it secretly and have been like this all their lives. Therefore they appreciate women like me who are open, will not raise suspicions and will “own ” them (D/s term) in private. I also am a polyglot, attractive, Yale (graduate) degree. I work, yes, but in a creative field.

          Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 8

          • John Says:

            Just because a wealthy guy likes to have his ass spanked by a domme, doesn’t mean he will wife you up. I am sure he can find women like that in the D/S community without having to marry them.

            Based on your reply, the smart money will double down on their bet that you wont be able to get one of them to marry you.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 13 Thumb down 5

          • mindstar Says:

            “I also am a polyglot, attractive, Yale (graduate) degree. I work, yes, but in a creative field.”

            Of all of those qualities only attractiveness is one most men consider of high importance. Being sexually dominant likely will get you in the door with submissive men (some who may even meet your requirements for success) but if that was enough you’d have landed one by now.

            You don’t say that you’re kind, loving, that you would be a great mother to the children you want this man to provide for (I trust they would be HIS children)that you would be his partner and helpmate. These are the qualities a man seeks in a wife.

            Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  16. msM. Says:

    John I have to go I have taken over this thread. Last comment. Men who contact me know that already – it’s written on my profile that I only like alpha-successful men who want a LTR. I don’t go after them – they all write to me. I have an Ivy League degree and plenty of successful vanilla friends it’ s not THAT unusual. I live in a nice neighborhood in downtown Manhattan. It’s not that hard to find successful guys, ok? Good luck and thanks for the ill-wishes lol. i hope you find someone who fits your dating criteria as well. bye.

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  17. Lisa Pretty 37 yrs old, won't go for a 50 yr old man Says:

    Women and men over the age of 35 are both the same age yet man applies this to women as if she is the only one. women who are 35 do not like dating older men over 50, indeed the career women who is over 35 and is still stunningly beautiful could settle for a wealthy guy who does not want kids either. Breaking news, why judge women over the age of 35 when their is only 5 years age gap between 30-35 and over 30 is still getting older and wiser but women are constantly vilified and judged for their own life choices. Why don’t men judge their own gender, men who go for wealthy women ?? Why constantly belittle and judge us and treat us like children when we don;t do the same to egotistical men. This is why there is a new movement called equality so that women cannot be treated like a child who cannot make up their own mind over the age of 30 and we are treated like rational adults who can do as we please. You cannot continue treating women as imbeciles and over 35 and under 50 is still young. But men will continue hating!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

  18. F Says:

    What a hateful article! Why should we essentially give up or give into these men? At an older age we have lived, experienced life and have learned from our mistakes! Any grown woman who is willing to SETTLE to get a man is pathetic. Your article should have been about enjoying the independence & freedom that comes from being single while hopefully at some point you will run into Mr. Perfrct for you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

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