Signs He’s A Really Sh*tty Person

Name: ADredflag
:
Comment: I’ve been texting with a guy for a week. Met him on Tinder, and I’ve been really bounded on his reactions and respond in our conversations (just to mention, not subjects witch included a lot of personal stuff)  just really good chit chatting,.

We’ve talked abut meeting twice, just for a coffee, but never actually happened, so we decided to meet in town after going out with a couple of friends.

I didn’t actually think that we would end up meeting, so I decided to get really drunk – of course he ended up texting me, and he wasn’t, so I went with him home, and had my first one night stand.. It was actually pretty awkward because I was too drunk to be my self. Anyways, went home early next morning, even though he asked if I wanted a shower, he kissed me several of times, before I went..

5 minutes after I sended him a snapchat and he responded me..

The day after I found out that I took his earplugs with me back home by an accident, and I wrote him, that I had it, and he should just respond me, if he wanted it back…

Now I haven’t heard from him, thinking about just writing him that I’m sorry that it got to end here…

I gotta say, that when I finally met him, he told me that he was positive surprised, and I was more – like not saying anything…

How many days should I put him on ice, and what would the best move to be, I’f I feel like I disappointed him?
Age: 21
City: New York
State: New York

You should put him on ice in perpetuity. Here’s why.

Any guy who has sex with a woman when she is “really drunk” is not a good guy. Period. Full stop. Now, there’s a decent chance he had no idea how drunk you were since he wasn’t out with you and didn’t have a baseline for how you are when you’re sober versus drunk. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt because I wasn’t there. But if you were acting drunk and it was obvious you were drunk, and this guy had sex with you anyway, I feel very confident in saying he’s a pretty shitty person. But..if he truly didn’t know you were inebriated to the point that your behavior changed..he’s still a dick.

He showed no interest in getting to know you other than later one night when you had been out with friends. He didn’t want to meet for coffee. He didn’t want to meet you in any kind of scenario other than one that would lend itself to him getting laid.

NOT A NICE GUY.

I gotta say, that when I finally met him, he told me that he was positive surprised, and I was more – like not saying anything…

What he was actually saying was, “Wow, the whole reason I delayed meeting you was because I wasn’t sure I found you attractive enough to make the effort. But since we’re here…”

NOT A NICE GUY.

That’s a backhanded compliment.

Tinder quickly received the reputation of being a hook-up site. I have received a couple messages from guys with whom I matched who made it quite clear they just wanted sex. As in all they said was, “Let’s fuck.” My personal favorite was the guy who said, “Hi there. I was wondering if you’d be interested in sex. Totally casual.” Sex? I love sex. But not with some rando idiot who actually thinks that kind of approach is appropriate. These are guys who don’t care a whit if they offend you. You’re there, you have a pulse, so why not? This guy you went out with? He saw you as a potential hook-up and that’s about it. That’s it. I’m sorry to be so graphic and brutal about it, but this whole scenario has me so incredibly angry and uncomfortable.

Now, here’s where I’m going to say something that might ruffle some feathers. Do not EVER go off and meet a stranger from any dating website or that you have never met before in any way when you’re drunk. You do not know these people and you don’t know what they’re capable of. And do not EVER agree to meet someone from a site or an app “after you go out with your friends” unless all you’re looking for is a casual hook-up. And even then, you need to keep your wits about you. Which means don’t do it if you’re drunk. You need to be able to make informed decisions, especially in regards to casual sex. When you’re drunk, you’re less aware.

This guy was only going to make the effort for you when he was already out and about. That’s not really someone you want to devote any effort or time to. This kind of behavior might be commonplace in college and in those early post-college years. People go out, they drink,  they meet casually with groups, they have random hook-ups. This is how the millenials date, and I get that.

Don’t contact this guy again. Let him go to Best Buy and spring for new ear buds. Block him on Tinder and do not ever reach out to him again. This guy couldn’t even have been bothered to reply to your message about having something of his. You didn’t do anything to cause the outcome of this. This was always going to be the outcome. This was all he wanted. The whole cuddling/shower/snapchat stuff are just a bunch of phony gestures to get more sex. They don’t mean what you think they mean.

Please don’t contact this guy again.

 

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84 Responses to “Signs He’s A Really Sh*tty Person”

  1. BigCityLife Says:

    Moxie, credit to you for being able to read this email. I had a hard time reading this disaster of an email with so many spelling and grammar mistakes.

    To AD, how do you “accidentally” leave with someone’s earbuds? Sounds like you were looking for a way to be back in conetact with this guy so you took his earbuds.

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    • Selena Says:

      “To AD, how do you “accidentally” leave with someone’s earbuds? Sounds like you were looking for a way to be back in conetact with this guy so you took his earbuds.”

      That was my first thought too LOL. A variation on “accidentally” leaving something in someone’s home after sex so there is a reason to contact them. Rather transparent.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

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    • ATWYSingle Says:

      Yes, the glaring indecency surrounding this scenario is her poor grammar.

      Holy fuck balls. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

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      • BTownGirl Says:

        Seriously, this is not the time to be meangirl-ing about grammar and possible earbud taking intent. Has anyone considered that maybe English isn’t her first language? As for the earbuds, who cares? This dude is vile and she shouldn’t be contacting him. I didn’t think this story could get more profoundly icky and then…”positive surprised”. YICK.

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        • Selena Says:

          Not trying to be mean girl, just found the ear plug taking amusing. How does one forget to leave ear plugs? :)

          Agree English is probably not the OP’s native language so grammar isn’t an issue.

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      • C Says:

        Thank you Moxie on behalf of all of us foreigners!

        Seriously kiddos?! This girl is probably communicative in 3-4 different language and likely either learned English in school or picked it up as a teenager, so get over yourselves!

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        What the fuck is wrong with you people?

        Literacy; a difficult burden to bear.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Bigcity: Had a hard time reading it too–but get the overall idea…and I heard one statement which really resonated with me.

      “You can’t shine shit, ladies”!

      Some people are just shitty by nature. And they will treat you as you let them treat you.

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  2. NailPolish Says:

    Why be nasty about someone’s spelling and grammar? For all you know they’re writing in a second language. In that case, it’s impressive.

    I, too, hope the LW never sees this guy again.

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  3. Lisa Says:

    What did this mean? The second part? thnx

    I gotta say, that when I finally met him, he told me that he was positive surprised, and I was more – like not saying anything…

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  4. Tinker Says:

    First, everything Moxie sad.
    Second, don’t worry about his earplugs ( not earbuds), they cost about 22 cents a pair
    Third, what would compel you to apologize to him? What do you think you did wrong? How do you feel you disappointed him?
    You fucked him. Trust me, whatever failings you feel that you showed he is not sad and upset about this.
    You’ve got to break out of the tendency to blame yourself for someone else’s questionable behavior. It will lead no where good for you.

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  5. fuzzilla Says:

    **Now, here’s where I’m going to say something that might ruffle some feathers. Do not EVER go off and meet a stranger from any dating website or that you have never met before in any way when you’re drunk.**

    Ruffle feathers? That’s not harsh at all, just common sense.

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  6. Speed Says:

    To some commenters: Don’t get too caught up in the OP’s grammar/spelling mistakes. Anyone can see that the OP is not a native English-speaker. That also means that she is likely not a Westerner, which means she has language, cultural, and international dating challenges. And in any event, the meaning of the letter is clear. Here is a red hot newsflash: not even Einstein spoke “perfect English.”

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  7. msM. Says:

    At the OP’s age, many of us women want a guy’s attention and we mistake him wanting to have sex with us, with them liking us as a person.
    The OP needs to learn the difference between a man who just wants to hook up and a man who sees you as a whole person, not just a nameless shag. in the large majority of cases, this type of hookup drunk sex will not lead to anything further.

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  8. C Says:

    Just had an interesting discussion about this very email. The guy may not be a jerk but he is definitely only interested in sex.

    He is a 20 year old guy. He goes on a “hookup” site and meets a chick. He assumes she just wants a hookup too.

    He doesnt suggest meeting for an actual date but instead suggests they meet up late one night after they had both been drinking with friends.

    They meet up. She is sloppy drunk. They hookup but he disliked the fact that she was so drunk and decides not to call her again.

    She pings him about his earphones. He assumes she is just looking for an excuse to meet up again and doesnt reply.

    Yeah, maybe he shouldnt have slept with a drunk girl, but he is a 20 year old guy….who met a girl on what he believes is a “hookup” site…a girl who showed up for what effectively is a late night booty call. So I dont know if he is so awful.

    That said, totally agree that this was always going to be a hookup and nothing more.

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    • C Says:

      *blog post* not email! Grr, stupid multi-tasking!

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    • ATWYSingle Says:

      No. No No No.

      Let me guess…you discussed this story with one of your asshole guy friends, right?

      Let me put this too you plainly so when you go back to him you can explain why this is problematic.

      She was “really drunk.” Which means she may or may not have legally consented. There’s a gray area there. I don’t care how fucking old that guy is. That’s no excuse for him to have sex with a woman who is “really drunk.” . Oh my God. Oh my GOD.

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      • Selena Says:

        How do we know he wasn’t drunk as well?

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          Because she said he wasn’t.

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          • A to the F Says:

            That doesn’t mean shit. If she’s drunk, how can she tell if someone else is or isn’t drunk either.

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          • Selena Says:

            Re-reading I see that. Thanks.

            I dunno Moxie…AD doesn’t seem at all upset about having sex with the guy. Just disappointed he’s not responding afterwards. She seems more concerned about the impression she made on him – as in the first meeting/ sex would have been better or less awkward had she not gotten drunk.

            It’s just not a clear example of being “taken advantage of” to me.

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        • Selena Says:

          To add to the debate: sometimes it isn’t obvious that someone is “really drunk”. Especially if both people have been drinking.

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      • C Says:

        ..actually my boyfriend. And in his defense, he said he would have asked her to sleep on the couch and called her a cab in the morning, but he is 40 not 20.

        But you make a great point. Arguably, he may have thought she consenting to the hookup while sober over the previous week of chatting…but that aside, I agree. Having sex with a sloppy drunk stranger is a very bad move.

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    • Selena Says:

      Agree. I don’t think the letter indites the guy as a sh*tty person. Rather it’s an illustration that drunken hook-ups with someone just met seldom become anything more. Part of the learning curve for lot’s of people going back decades. Nothing new, but something AD apparently needed to learn for herself.

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    • Howard Says:

      It may be that way. I am however not even sure an analysis of the guy is even relevant. I also was rather surprised at Moxie breathing so much fire in her advice, and wasting time analyzing the guy, after all, this was just a hook-up in which two people participated.

      There is enough blame to spread around on this one. If the OP wants to avoid this again, then all the advice should go to her actions and behavior, not an analysis of this guy.

      The OP should focus on doing things differently, if she wants better outcomes than those generated by being extraordinarily drunk and having sex with some guy she met at a hook-up site. Nine out of ten guys meeting a girl on a hook-up site that is really plastered, and having a one night stand with her, will probably not look forward to meeting her again.

      For Moxie to put the Villain card on this guy for having sex with a drunk woman, is total bullshit. She knew exactly what she was doing when she got drunk before she met him. If a woman shows up sober on a date, and along the way gets dunk, then maybe she gets a pass. If they met in a bar and she is getting drunk while chatting, she may even get a pass then. But there is no way, a woman gets intentionally drunk before even meeting a guy, then doing a one-night stand, and should get a pass on her total responsibility for what happened.

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  9. Katie Says:

    I’ve been in a similar situation, except the guy was my roommate in college, and we did share some mutual attraction, which we never pursued. One night, we drank together. I ended up much more drunk than him since I blacked out and continued vomiting until the afternoon the next day whereas he was completely fine. When I woke up, he told me we had sex and I should take the morning after pill.

    Whatever attraction I had for him pretty much died that moment. I can’t blame him completely for what happened, since I made the irresponsible decision to get that drunk. I was lucky that I didn’t get pregnant or catch an STD.

    He pursued me aggressively after that night, and tried to start a relationship with me. Quite comically, he didn’t seem to understand why I no longer wanted anything to do with him after that.

    AD, that guy was a dick who doesn’t give a shit about you. He just wanted to sleep with you and you have nothing to feel bad about. You don’t owe him anything. Please don’t ever get that drunk with a stranger again. I had been living with him for a semester and had known him for a year before the drunk incident happened. I thought I had a good grasp of his character but clearly not. My point is, if someone I know for some time can take advantage of me then you have no idea what a stranger is capable of. Please learn to protect yourself.

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    • Howard Says:

      Go ahead; feel like a victim! It’s a good coping mechanism to justify why you got that drunk. He was drinking too, maybe he should feel like a victim also, and imagine you took advantage of him. His character is suddenly in question, but yours isn’t, when both of you were drinking.

      People like you are so pathetic with this lack of fully accepting responsibility. To feel like a victim, you make this guy a total villain. A word of advice, when one accepts full responsibility, there is no need to feel like a victim.

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      • Katie Says:

        First of all, he was more drunk than I was. Second of all, I never claimed to be a complete victim in this situation as I clearly admitted in my original post that I did not “completely blame him since I did make the irresponsible decision to get that drunk.” Third of all, I always thought sex takes at least two people, so you’re making zero sense when you say I should accept “full responsibility.”

        Anyway, I don’t want to hijack this thread. The only point I wanted anyone to take away from my experience is that women should learn to protect themselves by not getting wasted with strangers.

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        • Katie Says:

          “First of all, he was more drunk than I was. ” I meant to say I was more drunk than he was. In fact, he said he remembered everything that happened the night before whereas I blacked out after the last shot.

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          • The D-man Says:

            ” In fact, he said he remembered everything that happened the night before whereas I blacked out after the last shot.”

            Yes, but during the time you were drunk, now was he supposed to know in advance that you wouldn’t remember? You’re playing a game of “who was drunker?” and deciding that you were ergo he must have taken advantage of you.

            Maybe he just didn’t realize you were at the blackout stage. The guy wanted a relationship with you so it’s not like it was a pump & dump.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Grow up.

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      • Goldie Says:

        Are you serious Howard? She blacked out. The law doesn’t take kindly to this kind of non-consensual sex, by the way. Google Steubenville.

        This isn’t rocket science. I have two sons age 18 and 21 and it is unthinkable to both of them to even consider having sex with someone who’s too drunk to give consent.

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        • C Says:

          She said she blacked out (loss of memory), not passed out (loss of consciousness). Unfortunately, theres no way to know when someone has blacked out.

          The bottom line and I think Katie is in part saying that, dont get drunk in a situation where you need to make good decisions. This goes for both men and women.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Are there really 24 people here who don’t even know what blackout means?

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          • Goldie Says:

            I know this much. I’ve never blacked out in my life. My personal record for alcohol intake, in college, was one half-liter bottle of vodka with one slice of bread to chase it down. So, for an ordinary person, not an alcoholic (they black out regularly), I’d say one would have to be pretty damn hammered to black out. It’s not like she had two drinks and conveniently lost her memory.

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      • Tinker Says:

        You must have a personal story related to his Howard. Cause Katie’s post wasn’t even saying all that.

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        • Howard Says:

          Funny to see me now being indicted. Do women ever get tired of making guys villains? Personally I dislike drunk women, absolutely can’t stand the smell.

          I have turned down quite a few in my time, even one particularly stubborn one who kept demanding to see my penis because black guys were supposed to be big. She suckered me by asking to come in to use my phone, no cellphones back then. Me, being the nice guy, fell for it, and she wouldn’t leave, even though I was standing in my open doorway trying to get her out. In fact, I felt quite violated and was personally worried about her villainizing me in some way for scorning her. Thankfully she gave up after about fifteen minutes of me saying no, and probably couldn’t remember squat the next day.

          But this is not about me or even the guys who have sex with drunk women. It’s about accepting responsibility for one’s actions totally, and I repeat, totally, when dunk.

          If one gets drunk and drives, no one gives him or her a free pass on total responsibility. I can’t see any guy trying to blame someone else for something that occured when he was drunk, simply because he was drunk.

          If it could be proven that someone got you deliberately drunk and incapacitated, precisely for the reason of taking advantage of you, then that is a valid case for indicting him. The story that was told by Katie, does not indicate that happened. In fact the guy really liked her and wanted a relationship with her. Her attempt at salving herself, is that the guy did not get as drunk as her, even though he was drinking too.

          Regarding the Steubenville incident, that is so different to the op’s story or the story told by Katie. Steubenville involved a lot of people. It was documented and posted on social media. It involved individuals making fun of the victim. The victim was a minor. To compare Steubenville to any of these two situations, is a really really long stretch.

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          • Flan Says:

            Drunk drivers are not exonerated because they actively brought about a situation that harmed others; this analogy would only be appropriate if a woman got drunk and raped another person while intoxicated. Women who get drunk are more akin to drivers that slowly wobble around in their lane. If you see that car, obviously you’d slow down and drive around it – you wouldn’t hop in the car with that drunk driver and speed off into the night thinking that whatever happened next is out of your scope of responsibility. The men who slept with these women directly involved themselves of their own volition. At this point, they have as much responsibility for where the car ends up as the drunk driver.

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          • cake Says:

            “If it could be proven that someone got you deliberately drunk and incapacitated, precisely for the reason of taking advantage of you, then that is a valid case for indicting him. The story that was told by Katie, does not indicate that happened. In fact the guy really liked her and wanted a relationship with her”

            You must know very little about women if you think having sex with a girl you really like while she’s drunk is the best way to show her you care and want a relationship with her.

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        So then if you got blackout drunk with a gay male friend, Howard, you’d be totally fine with him taking advantage of you in that state since you “should have known” the situation you were putting yourself into? Because that’s basically what you’re telling Katie to do. Jesus…

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        • Howard Says:

          Of course I wouldn’t be fine with him taking advantage of me. I would however accept total responsibility for getting that drunk and incapacitated. And that is exactly what I am telling Katie to do.

          And let me assure you, I have never gotten that drunk, and it will never happen. I suppose that has to do with my grand-father dying at fifty from liver failure after a lifetime of hard drinking. Getting drunk is no different from getting high, using heroin or cocaine. It’s sad and hypocritical that our society chooses to see it differently. But then again there are some powerful people selling beer and other liquors.

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          • fuzzilla Says:

            Your personal feelings about alcohol don’t mean it’s open season on someone who made what you think is a poor decision. You can’t dance around slut shaming/being okay with rape by claiming “substance shaming” as a morally superior stance.

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          • Goldie Says:

            Look, Howard, both my father-in-law and his father were alcoholics, and died early from drinking. I ended up leaving my husband after 22 years together because his drinking problem was getting worse and he didn’t want to do anything about it. I keep little or no alcohol in my house. This is to say, I share your feelings about alcohol in general. But that doesn’t change the fact that people who are too drunk to give consent are off limits as far as sex is concerned. It’s like Speed said in his comment below, “I never want to argue in front of a judge and jury, “Well, we were both drunk, so why am I on trial?”

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          • Eliza Says:

            Howard…never say “never”. Because there are rather nasty/cryptic people who DO prey on younger, more trusting women (because, let’s face it), an experienced guy will know who by and large is less experienced in social settings/dating and therefore, more vulnerable. When you are in your late teens early 20’s, your view of others and the world is vastly different than one from a 40 year old woman’s or 40 yr old man’s perspective. By the way, there have been instances of men slipping something into a drink…causing loss of all consciousness. And yes, it does happen often to both men and women. So sometimes, you think you are being prudent, but there are some people out there looking to take advantage by any means. Don’t think Katie is trying to play the victim card here. She’s young, just learning the ropes. As always, it’s best to put yourself in one’s shoes before casting stones. And what others on this board are saying is: If someone appears to be somewhat off due to one too many drinks, why even bother to initiate sex with them? Not agreeing that someone has the right to get drunk, and not take accountability for their actions. But it does take TWO TO TANGO.

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          • Joey Giraud Says:

            Stick to your guns Howard, preach it.

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        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Too drunk to “give consent” is a completely asinine concept. If someone is too drunk to actively participate, sex should be off limits. If you are awake, saying dirty things in someones ear, and tearing someones clothes off, “consent” is an absurd term to use.

          Women should be insulted by this terminology too as it presumes that women are not active participants in a sexual encounter.

          Nobody here is talking about having sex with someone who is passed out. (unresponsive, sleeping, etc) If you don’t know the difference between black out and pass out, go google it and come back to the conversation. A sober person will likely not be able to tell when another person becomes blackout drunk. Another person who has been drinking will certainly not be able to tell.

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          • cake Says:

            Necrophiles have sex with dead bodies that are completely unable to consent. So I don’t see why women should feel insulted when they’re passed out. While we’re all playing the game where we’re making wild speculations about what happened when none of us were there, I could also say that the woman was staggering around, falling down, and the guy in question dragged her back to the bedroom and sexually assaulted her.

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          • Goldie Says:

            If Katie’s roommate didn’t know she wasn’t actively participating, then how come the first thing he told her in the morning was not “good morning” or “how’re you feeling” or “wasn’t it fun last night”, but “hey just so you know, we had sex”? Also, the part about him telling her she should take the morning after pill makes me really mad. Prince Charming figured he didn’t need a condom, since she was in a state where she wasn’t likely to notice he wasn’t using one, how decent of him.

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  10. John Says:

    Katie says:
    I did not “completely blame him since I did make the irresponsible decision to get that drunk.” Third of all, I always thought sex takes at least two people, so you’re making zero sense when you say I should accept “full responsibility.”

    Katie, if you say you don’t completely blame the guy, that means you are partially blaming him. And I have to ask, what is it exactly that he should be getting blamed for? He has ZERO blame. You got drunk and gave it up on a first meeting after meeting him on a hookup site. Your fault.

    In your follow up comment you state that another college guy took advantage of you when you had to much to drink. Do you see a pattern here that when you drink, you give it up and then try to make it seem like the guys are at fault? Because in both stories, you try to come across as the victim.

    Ironic how you mention in your comment “Please learn to protect yourself”. It seems to me that the guys who have sex with you are the ones that need the protecting.

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    • Tinker Says:

      John you aren’t even trying to follow the storyline, huh?

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      • C Says:

        He just misunderstood. It happens.

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        Oh he followed it just fine. But he didn’t make the same judgment Moxie did.

        Men are likely to see this much differently, because we’re familiar with the way women often blame men for things the women should take responsibility for. ( just happened to me today when the ex blamed me for some difficulties she’s having dealing with our sons, who are perfectly normal. )

        And this particular letter kind of reeks of that tactic.

        Moxie’s advice was, in this case, rather like the solid advice of a mother or older sister, not a dating coach. The OP could probably stand to hear that advice.

        But the 21 year “bad guy” may well be a decent guy as the OP might well be exaggerating her inebriation to get social validation here.

        Girls do love them some social validation.

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  11. Paul Says:

    John, Katie and the LW (AD) are not the same person…

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  12. msM. Says:

    I’d be careful that this conversation does not turn into slut shaming. which is what Howard and John’s comments sound like. From wikipedia:

    “It is a neologism used to describe the act of making any person feel guilty or inferior for certain sexual behaviors or desires that deviate from traditional or orthodox gender expectations, or that which may be considered to be contrary to natural or religious law”.

    I would prefer to not think what I am thinking now after reading Howard and John’s comments – that they are blaming both Katie and the OP for ANY wrong doing on the man’s part because well, they must have “invited” that somehow ….

    From a woman’s perspective, we are dealing with boundaries here. And how hard they are to draw as a young woman. I also have a personal story when I was about the OPs age I met someone I really liked – he was 35 and I was 22 – we went on a long date and at the end of it we went to a bar and he kept buying me drinks – I BARELY drank then and I am the same now. I was infatuated with him and I wanted to “date” him…we went over to his place, I was VERY drunk, to the point that he had to carry me up the stairs, and I liked him a lot, I wanted to be with him, but to hold on the sex…I wanted to sleep in the couch but he brought me to bed…said “take off your clothes you’ll feel more comfortable…” what I can say about sex and alcohol is that it diminishes you ability to say NO. eventually, we were about to have sex – he were making out in bed…and at that stage I demanded we use condoms and he said “no” he “didn’t like using them”. We had sex anyway.

    In the morning I felt awful and he said “see you around” when we said goodbye. I am lucky I have no STDs or Aids, and no, no relationship ever materialized, but since that happened I have never liked mixing alcohol and dating because the boundary issue is complicated. There is no one to protect you when that happens, and it does happen, usually to very young women. We learn the very hard way how to protect ourselves and to say NO because if we are left to random men, we are not protected. The weird fucked up thing is that I liked this man even after that. I thought he was so “special” and interesting (he was famous in his field) as if that justified his actions somehow.

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    • Howard Says:

      I know young guys who like to drive their cars really fast, especially when they are tipsy. Yes, young people do foolish things, but I am not excusing these young guys, simply because they are young and inexperienced. Similarly, I am not excusing you or Katie or LW. This “hard to draw boundaries” excuse has got to be the worst argument to partially exonerate drinking too much.

      I also fail to see how asking someone to fully accept responsibility becomes slut shaming.

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      • Howard Says:

        I repeat, none of these two incidents isn’t even close to the Steubenville type incident. If the man is drinking also, it’s pretty hard to somehow decide that he has some higher responsibility in deciding she is too drunk to give consent, when he is also past the legal limit for driving a car. I have no doubt that the guy with Katie was slightly less drunk, but he was clearly also heavily under the influence.

        Let me give the best scenario that explodes the argument people are pushing here. If a woman gets really drunk and has sex with a minor, where do you think the law is going to go with that? I think they will charge the woman with statutory rape. There won’t be any pass on her behavior while drunk.

        In the situation with the OP, the man was not even there when she did the drinking, it’s also pretty ludicrous to suggest that she was beyond giving consent. Oh, actually in that one, she totally remembers, and totally planned on getting drunk to have sex. She also had all her faculties to get to his place. So the incapable of making a decision argument is moot.

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        • Howard Says:

          It’s kinda of contradictory, to say that the guy with Katie is a villain simply because he remembers, but the OP who remembers is not a villain and is somehow incapable of giving consent.

          That contradiction shows the sliding scale. The guy is somehow always the villain.

          Bottom line, ability to remember has nothing to do with how drunk a person is. Even the ability to present oneself well enough, or get into a car is not a deciding factor. That is why they have breathalyser tests. People have actually walked the line the cop gave them to walk, but failed the breathalyser test miserably.

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          • cake Says:

            Howard, I think you are building farfetched connections. You only need a blood alcohol level of .08 to be considered legally drunk, that’s only 2-4 drink for someone who is between 100lbs and 180lbs. Most people don’t blackout from 2-4 drinks.

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        • mindstar Says:

          That may be the case but the mnior could still be required to pay her child support if he gets her pregant. Over the years there have been several cases on that very issue.

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  13. Speed Says:

    I have never had sex with a (new/strange) woman who was “really drunk.” I either saw her home or let her sleep alone on the floor, couch, whatever I could drag her to. Maybe a little because of chivalry but mostly out of a fear of a potential date rape charge. If the woman was really into me, then we had sex in the morning when we were both sober. If in the morning she declined and went home instead, I figured I dodged a bullet. No “new sex” can be so great that a man should risk prison. I never want to argue in front of a judge and jury, “Well, we were both drunk, so why am I on trial?” No, no, no. This should be just common sense for men–unless you want to take your chances in lockup.

    That said, is the guy a villain? Based on the OP’s information, he knowingly had sex with a very drunk young foreign woman, likely lonely, possibly homesick and certainly naïve about Western dating culture. So, it’s easy to paint him as a singular villain and leave it at that. But there are tons of guys like that in the world. No amount of rants at Jezebel or XO Jane are going to make them go away. Men are biologically hardwired to be very sexually aggressive and I’m no different. Like I said, I just want to avoid lockup so I have never had sex with a woman who was clearly plastered on booze.

    The more important thing is that, as Moxie and other commenters have written, is that OP learn fast about Western dating culture, Western guys (and not the ones she may have seen in movies) and drinking on first dates. She also has to be careful about Western men who specifically target “exotic” foreign women because of all the sexual stereotypes running through their heads and also because they think they can get away with a lot more. If I had a daughter, she would be around the OP’s age and that is the advice I would give her.

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    • Selena Says:

      Good post pointing out it’s not just women who can be affected by alcohol and sexual decision making; the price for men can be very high as well.

      That said, it’s this that bothers me: “Based on the OP’s information, he knowingly had sex with a very drunk young foreign woman, likely lonely, possibly homesick and certainly naïve about Western dating culture.”

      The OP doesn’t seem to regret hooking up with this guy at all. In fact, she would like to see him again. There is nothing written by HER to suggest she felt her consent was compromised by her alcohol consumption.

      And I question her naivete about both sex and Western dating culture. She wrote she DECIDED to go out with her friends and get really drunk; which makes me think she views getting drunk as a recreational activity. Not unheard of in that age group. She does say this was her first one night stand, but that doesn’t mean it was her first hook-up. A ONS is only a ONS if the two people never get together again. If she gets together with this dude again (like she apparently wants to) then it won’t be a ONS.

      Her question was simple and not at all related to date rape: He hasn’t contacted her after their hookup. She contacted him once about the ear plugs, no reply. Should she contact him one more time, or write him off? A straightforward question that doesn’t automatically imply naivete.

      I may be way off base, but I have the sense she would have hooked up with this guy even if she wasn’t *really drunk*.

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      • mindstar Says:

        Actually Selena the price for men can be much higher. A woman’s intoxicated state voids any consent she has given to a man. She’s drunk and he’s sober he can be charged with rape if she wishes. She’s drunk and he’s drunk as well? He can still be charged with rape and his drunken state does not reduce his responsibility one iota in the eyes of the law.

        Speed’s practice is the one to follow. If there is any question about her ability to consent take a pass on her offer. Even when she insults your masculinity and says you’re gay for not wanting to have sex with her. That’s far, far better than doing time for rape and being labeled a sex offender the rest of your life.

        Howard’s point is not “slut shaming” or “drunk shaming”. It’s about being responsible for the consequences of your actions. If I park my car in a crappy neighborhood and leave the window rolled down and the key in the ignition am I not at least partially to blame if its stolen? Similarly if I drink and drive and injure somebody my intoxication does not lessen my responsibility.

        Men don’t get the same pass as women do when it comes to sex and being drunk. Since we don’t the smart to to do is avoid the situation.

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        • Selena Says:

          I completely agree Mindstar.

          My comment was just an observation on how this thread has veered far from what the Letter Writer self-described and the question SHE asked.

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        • Howard Says:

          Thank you mindstar for bringing it back to what it should be about. If the guys in either the OP situation or Katie’s situation had written in, I would have be giving it to them too. I don’t do drunk women, and I see no reason for any guy to.

          I choose to direct advice to the people I have available at hand. The problem with these blogs is that they devolve too much into villainizing people who aren’t even around, when the opportunity is there to actually help the people who are around. We can’t affect change in the people who are not here, but we can try to get people here to see their involvement in the mess that unfolds.

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          • cake Says:

            No Howard, you’re an asshole who likes feeling superior to people you consider bigger fuckups than yourself and you do this by telling them off.

            There’s nothing more foul-smelling than the stench of disingenuity.

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          • Flan Says:

            You do realize that in your effort to give “advice” to the people available at hand you’ve rigidly structured the boundaries of sexual responsibility solely on the defensive standpoint of the woman. Despite all the “wisdom” you’ve bestowed upon yourself, your perspective is a very narrow-minded oversimplification that is founded solely on a series of retroactive hypothetical countermeasures that a woman could take.

            If you still have the mental faculties to direct an encounter into a sexual one, you have the ability to stop yourself from unbuttoning your pants, removing your underwear and doing the same to the other person. Don’t merely point your finger at women because they’re the easiest or most convenient target this blog has presented to you – it makes you no better than the men who blame and take advantage of the drunk women who are easy targets.

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          • cake Says:

            The reason why I say you’re disingenuous, Howard, is that every single one of your posts so far has been in defense of the point that when a person has sex with a blacked out drunken person, it is the drunk person who should take full responsibility.

            That is completely wrong. Both people are responsible.

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          • C Says:

            Cake – come now. No personal attacks. Whether you agree with him or not, he brings an interesting point of view to the discussion.

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          • Howard Says:

            Since there is no space to respond below. Let me reiterate this. The op was not blacked out. The people who keep saying that, obviously have such a passion to make me a villain, “asshole as cake puts it”, that they fail to read and over inflate.

            The OP has full memory. She is asking questions about how many days she should put this guy on ice, as a manipulation tool. She probably deliberately took his earplugs. And the clincher is that she planned it all, getting a little drunk, before even going over to him.

            That I see no benefit in over-dwelling on the guy in question, suddenly makes me an asshole. I have never defended this guy. I chose to not engage in the typical “make the guy a villain and call it a day”

            The guy isn’t reading this blog. What’s the use of doing that? The OP is reading. Let us help her to not do this in the future. Merely making this guy a villain has limited ability to stop future occurences.

            Do I even need to go into the Katie thing? OK, the guy wanted a relationship. That he made the mistake of not using a condom shows how drunk he was. He obviously regretted not using a condom, hence the morning after pill thing. He obviously wasn’t very good at handling things well after the fact, thus resulting in all the righteous indignation of Katie. I personally believe if he had done things differently the morning after, we would not have been seeing that steam coming off of Katie.

            They were both equally drinking. That he remembers better seems to somehow make him a villain, when the OP of the day is given a pass when she remembers.

            Blogs like this work when people take responsibility and look for ways of doing things better. Being lost in how bad other people are, changes nothing. Whether people want to believe this or not, most young guys will do exactly what the guy in the OP’s story did. That is not going to change, despite all the holy than thou hollering on this board. What can change, is the way the OP does things.

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        • C Says:

          Mindstar – totally agree.

          I new a guy in his mid 30s (not a friend but a guy I went out with a couple of times) who hadnt had a drink since college.

          He explained that when he was in college, he went on a date that went well, they got drunk, he invited her over, they had sex, she spent the night, and left in the morning indicating nothing was wrong.

          Later, she told two male friends that she had been raped and the boys apparently attacked this guy.

          I dont know what really happened, I can only tell you that this man was convinced that everything that happened that night was consensual and was shocked that the girl claimed rape.

          In fairness, I’m sure theres plenty of harmless, consensual drunken sex occuring on college campuses all over america but yes, drunken hookups can do damage to both men and women.

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    • Eliza Says:

      Very well said Speed…and by the way – some people get even more “aggressive” and outspoken sexually when they drink. Even just 2 drinks can alter someone’s from passive to aggressive.

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  14. mindstar Says:

    Well Flan then the argument could be made, and I’m sure it has, that the woman’s ability to remove her own clothing or the man’s is sufficient proof that she has the mental faculties to consent to sex even if she is drunk. I’ll bet more than one frat boy has claimed the drunk co-ed he was with was sober enough to give consent because of that behavior.

    Far better and safer to pass completely than get rape charges brought against you. When her tequila googles fall off in the morning she may not like what she see sleeping next to her and may have “buyer’s remorse” . Don’t be in position to have that come back to haunt you

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    • Flan Says:

      The entire issue is based on the responsibility of the man/woman who possesses more of his or her mental faculties than the woman/man who is too intoxicated to remove themselves from these situations, to make the decisions that they would make if they were sober, or to coherently declare their disinterest in a sexual encounter. More specifically, these situations involved young, relatively inexperienced women who were drunk and thus, inadequately able to advocate for their own best interests. These men who slept with them, having been less drunk (OP’s guy was sober, Katie’s friend possessed enough state of mind to remember all the events) possess an amount of responsibility proportional to their mental faculties at the time of the encounter.

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      • C Says:

        If you’ve ever been drunk, you may realize that the mere fact that you didnt black out in no way means that you were coherent enough to make good decisions (i.e. give consent).

        In any event, what does blacking out have to do with anything? What is the difference between getting drunk and doing stupid things that you regret later, versus getting drunk and doing stupid things you regret and dont remember later?

        Both girls were plastered. Both guys had been drinking prior to the sexual encounter. We have no idea exactly how coherent the men were.

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  15. D'Alias Says:

    It’s not possible for a lay person to tell if somebody will black out or not. A black out is when the memory fails to form. You can’t know that happened till you don’t remember anything the next day. Many people who drink that claim they’ve never had a blackout just don’t realize they did b/c their behavior during the blackout period didn’t seem unusual or noteworthy to their friends.

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      So the takeaway is that blackouts are actually a lot more common than the average lay person thinks? Hmm, interesting.

      I don’t believe you have to be 100% sober to have consensual sex, but really, any decent person knows sloppy and slurring = no bueno/pants stay on.

      Also, if it matters, I highly doubt the men in these questionable scenarios were as drunk as the women, otherwise how could they perform? Hasn’t anyone heard the song, “Too Drunk to Fuck”? A guy would have to intentionally hold back a bit and watch the woman get shit-faced for a scenario like Katie’s to play out.

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