Dating Profile No-No’s

Name: Wayne Online dating
Question: I’m 55. Why when I write down the truth about myself, which is all good, and I am a nice guy who knows how to treat a girl, and I’m not ugly, I get n0 response from women I say I’m looking for, Attractive, not overweight, between 45 – 60, smart, funny, and most important, Affectionate/Romantic.
Age: 55
State: Connecticut

 

If this letter is an example of your profile prowess, then part of your problem is your writing style. This letter is somewhat unreadable. It reads like you’re writing a stream of conscious ramble, not a coherent thought. You need to write something well structured that reads easily. I’ll expand on this in a minute.

If you say in your profile that you’re looking for a woman who isn’t overweight, you’re not the nice guy you think you are. The whole “No fatties!” stuff is really offensive. Then again, you’re sparing women from having to deal with your inevitable criticisms of their body by including that line.

I would guess that most if not all of the people who self-identify in their profile as a “nice person” or “nice guy” probably isn’t. Same goes for men who describe themselves as “gentleman.” Oh, you know how to treat a woman? Want a cookie for not being an abusive asshole? Knowing how to treat other people with respect should be a given. You shouldn’t have to come out and say it. Not only that, but statements like that hint at the guy having very antiquated ideas about women and how we think and what we like. Pass. Romantic is another descriptor that makes me twitchy. It plays into a fantasy and feels disingenuous. Even if it is true, show me you’re romantic. Don’t tell me. Let me decide.

Something tells me you’re being a wee bit too picky when deciding who to message and to whom to respond. Really? No attractive women in your age range are responding to you? I have a hard time believing that. To me, it appears as though your problem is a combination of your unreasonable standards and the fact that your profile doesn’t make a good impression.

Every Saturday, from 9am to about 4pm, I’m doing profile reviews. My clients and I spend the majority of the 30-60 minute sessions trying to re-write their self-summaries. Almost everybody save for the professional writers struggles with this part. Here are some common mistakes I find in the About Me sections and how to fix them.

1. Don’t waste the space. – Do not devote any time or space in the summary by giving extraneous information like how hard it is to write about yourself. Nobody cares. That first sentence needs to grab people and keep them interested. You need to open your profile with a bit of a bang. For example, my profile opens with this:

“Part Joan Holloway, part Joan Didion. I spent my first month in NYC living in a convent. True story. No, I was not considering taking a vow of celibacy.”

2. Don’t write choppy or generic sentences. –  Nothing says snoozefest like, “I’m a laid-back person who is always up for an adventure. My friends say that I am reliable and always there with an ear or a shoulder. I like being active and outdoors.” Ugh. Zzzzzzzzzzz. Your summary needs to flow, not stop and start. It can’t feel like a taxi cab ride down Fifth Avenue. The sentences need to connect, and each line needs to set-up the next. Here’s another excerpt from my profile:

“I’m a lifestyle/gender issues writer living in Manhattan looking for someone who seeks a partner, a sounding board, and a companion. I’m passionate about various forms of expression and art and inquisitive about what makes us tick. I’m equal parts carnal and creative and believe wit is far more arousing than sarcasm and prefer grit over machismo and muscles.

3. Forget the buzzwords. – Adventurous, relaxed, open-minded, active, blah blah blah. Everybody describes themselves in the same way. While it’s really hard to write a profile that stands out, it’s incredibly easy to write one that is interchangeable with all the others. No, you shouldn’t resort to a thesaurus. You need to include examples of these attributes. I will again point to the beauty of bullet point lists. When things are put into list format instead of separated by commas they are easier to read. From my profile:

Some fun facts about me:
*I realized I was in serious need of grammar and punctuation lessons, so I just signed up for a course with Gotham Writer’s Workshop. (I am also going to take their Novel and Fiction writing courses.)
*If Zoolander is on TV, I set aside whatever I’m doing to watch it.
*I am fortunate to have friends who encourage me to learn as much as I can about out nation/world.
*I own maybe 8 pairs of shoes but wear my sneakers the most.
*I added a Pee Wee Herman sound clip app to my phone and play it when stressed. My favorite? “Why don’t you take a picture it’ll last longer!”
*I moved to NYC 20 years ago by myself without knowing a soul.
*I can walk 65 Manhattan blocks in 45 minutes. If Madonna is playing on my iPod, I can do it in 42 minutes.
*I volunteer to walk dogs who have been abused.

 4. Don’t repeat yourself. - You can open and close with similar thoughts, but you shouldn’t continue to mention the same things throughout your profile. For example, let’s say you’re really in to staying fit. That can go in your self-summary. ONCE. You can then refer to is again in your closing or when you describe your ideal mate by saying you hope to meet someone who enjoys staying active. Your profile should not be peppered with numerous references to one thing, like your job or various hobbies. Remember, you need to utilize the few seconds you have to keep someone interested. Repeating yourself is a waste of their time and your space.

Any more you can think of?

 

 

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109 Responses to “Dating Profile No-No’s”

  1. JulesP Says:

    Wayne take Moxie’s advice!

    When I see a guy’s profile starting with…

    “Great looking, great personality, full of life, enjoys the good things in life” etc etc

    I pass these profiles over.

    As Moxie pointed out correctly… whether or not you are good looking is pretty much in the eye of the beholder, based on the photos that you post in your profile. What I like to read is if someone loves running round the park with their doggie then let me know. Tell me in your profile what music does it for you (and even how it makes you react!). Have you seen a good movie lately? Get where I’m going with this?

    Good luck!

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    • Howard Says:

      Wayne, don’t get down about it. There are a lot of bad profiles online, so the only place you can go from here, is up. It doesn’t matter who you are, you face the same challenge. How do you describe yourself sufficiently without coming off as self-centered or boasting? How do you adequately say what you need, in such a way, to avoid wasted time, but not come off as picky or having baggage or being offensive?

      I had a bit of success towards the end of my time online. I am fine with the woman I am with now, so I am off. It took me a while to get it working for me. There are people who will say I didn’t get it right because some people just like to be haters, but maybe you will find some pearls in my advice.

      I believe one has to craft a narrative about oneself that says what one does, in a way, where the qualities in oneself shine through. If you say, that you are a nice guy or any such self aggrandizement, women will be suspicious of you. That has to be surmised from the things you engage in and the way you express yourself.

      Instead of saying I was a fun guy, I would say the things, I get out there and do for fun. When it came to what I wanted, I pretty much figured that every woman knew I wanted the best looking woman possible. I felt there was no need to say, that I was looking for an attractive woman.

      The “describe the person you seek” section is a really dangerous section for guys to fill out. I pretty much did narratives that expressed some qualities I observed in women, that I looked up to, over the years and admired. I always stuck to qualities and personality traits. I totally avoided physical characteristics. I always felt there was no need, to say or infer what I didn’t like or want. I believe in staying positive. Negative expressions, just begets negative people, and completely puts off positive people.

      Online dating is pretty much like cold calling in sales. It’s not about selling the product but getting the chance to sell the product. Don’t worry so much about all the bad female profiles that you are going to go through. They are in the same place that you are in now. Be kind; the profiles they put up are not a total indictment of them, just something they wrote too quickly and poor responses to their frustrations. My girlfriend and I had a good laugh when we went back and looked at her profile and all the things she should not have been in her profile. In spite of her faux pas, I was able to see through all that

      Bad Profiles are indeed just gut responses to the problems we have with dating on the whole and finding someone. When guys write profiles poorly, we get little or no responses. Women writing profiles poorly still get responses, but they run the risk of little responses from the guys they really want. However, men being the visual creatures we are, will respond to a bad female profile if she has amazing pics. That’s just the way it is. Don’t worry about it. Entitlement is often a curse too, that leads to indecision. The key is about finding one good woman. It doesn’t matter how many reject you; if you do, you still did better than the great looking people who are still looking.

      Don’t just do online. Try to meet women in person too, through meetup, speed dating, referrals and cold approaching(as hard as it is). You have to take the heavy stakes, that you are placing in online dating, out of the picture. If you depend too heavily on online dating, you will get frustrated.

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  2. Mark Says:

    Zero responses?

    OK, face it, there is an issue.

    What you are currently putting forth in your profile is not getting through to your target audience.

    I can’t tell you why, but I can hazard a guess or two.

    There might be a mismatch between who you are looking for vs. who is looking for you.

    There might be a substantive issue with you profile. Ie photo’s or the body of the profile itself.

    Take a look at a few profiles from guys in your demographic whom you believe are successful at this. Take a leaf from their book. Rule of thumb – please try very hard to avoid the cliche riddled profile. It makes you anything but appealing and far from special. Platitudes seldom suggest that you are going the extra mile. If you are not looking for stock then it is entirely fair to say that they shouldn’t be looking for stock either.

    Think of it in terms of role reversal. If you were a woman and they were to take a look at what you have, is it something that would pique her interest enough to respond to a note you wrote her? Ditto for any introductory messages.

    So either revamp what you have or alter who it is you are looking for in a gal.

    Best of luck and hope things improve for you.

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  3. Goldie Says:

    Yes, as a woman, I can confirm that, as soon as I see any variation of “no fatties” in a guy’s profile, I stop reading, even though my body meets his requirements. To me this just says a lot about a man’s general attitude and the way he treats people. And your profile, photos and message would have to be pretty darn good to overcome the negative effect of “I’m a gentleman” or (something I see a lot of) “I’m looking for a lady”, for the exact reason Moxie stated – “statements like that hint at the guy having very antiquated ideas about women and how we think and what we like”. If all else looks good, I will give a self-proclaimed gentleman the benefit of the doubt, and assume his brain might’ve been on auto pilot when he wrote that.

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    • avery_t Says:

      Over 50% of the women in NYC say “no men under 5′ 10″” or “I don’t do short” or “I like tall guys” or “must be taller than I am in heels.” Do you think that’s any better than saying “no overweight women”?

      What if a man says “I like slender women” or “I like women as slim as Megan Fox”? What if he pharses it positively. Maybe he could say “I like girls with washboard abs.” Is it that you don’t like the prohibitionary phrasing of “no fatties”? What if he said “I go for women in Alvin Ailey dancer shape.”

      From what I’ve seen on okcupid, women feel VERY free to specify height, eye color, and resemblance to Ryan Gosling, Gregory Peck, and Jon Hamm. Sometimes it seems like all women talk about is height.

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      • Steve Says:

        unfortunately, women can get away with more on online dating since they are in greater demand.

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 6

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        • manwich Says:

          Absolutely bro!

          Some women’s profiles just reek of entitlement. They have a long list of stereotypes and accusations about what’s wrong with men, but very little about what they have to offer.

          Guys just want sex and companionship. It’s shallow, but honest. Be sexy and fun and we’re happy. Women have hundreds of ulterior motives. Just look at all the silly nitpicky little things women complain about in their profiles. OH MY GOD! A guy spelled “your” like “you’re”! where are all the real men!?! If a women gave you great sex, and fulfilling companionship, would you care how she spells a pronoun?

          Why do we let them get away with this crap? Because they have vaginas and we want in on that. A beautiful woman can say anything in her profile and still get dates. An ugly woman can say… uh… I guess I don’t know. What do ugly women say in their profiles?

          Lately I’ve just been using Tinder because I’m lazy. It’s the most brutally efficient way to date lots of attractive women you have nothing in common with. It’s easier to just meet people then decide if you like them.

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          • Selena Says:

            ” It’s easier to just meet people then decide if you like them.”

            Sounds like non-online dating. :)

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        • C Says:

          Women can get away with more online because some men dont read profiles. They just look at pictures.

          Avery? Seriously? 50% of women state in their profile that you are too short for them? Please! What search criteria are you filtering for? 18 year old wannabe trophy wives?

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          • avery_t Says:

            I live in Manhattan. My research indicates that women outside Manhattan are less likely to state a height requirement. Furthermore, it seems more prevalent among very short women (5′ to 5’2) who, owing to their height, must get swarmed by short men.

            Also, I click on only women are appear to be very attractive and who have a slender, fit, athletic body type.

            They don’t state I myself am too short. They say “be over 5′ 10″” or “be six feet.” Or they say “I have a thing for tall guys.”

            For comparison, I looked at people in Portland Oregon. There, most men list as 5′ 9″, which is average height. Where I live in Manhattan, there are many, many men who are 6′ 2″. Wall Street.

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          • C Says:

            I live in NYC and I see plenty of short men on the street with their short girlfriends, wives and kids so there are definitely short women in nyc getting involved with short men. And from what I’ve seen, as a general rule, the attractiveness level of the short men is relatively comparable to the attractiveness level of their girlfriends/wives.

            Ok Avery, so a little bit of a hijack going on but heres the thing: you say “I click on only women are appear to be very attractive and who have a slender, fit, athletic body type.”

            So you only want very attractive girls and you are upset that those same girls want only VERY attractive guys. Very attractive girls with all of the options in the world can ask for whatever they want. Do you know how many guys in the world are upset that they have trouble or cannot get the very attractive young women? Except rather then complaining about height, they complain about them all being gold diggers, or shallow b****s or they are only into muscle heads, or you name it.

            Just focus on the ones that want you rather than bemoaning all the women who dont want you especially if you want to date only the most attractive girls.

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          • avery_t Says:

            C,

            “So you only want very attractive girls and you are upset that those same girls want only VERY attractive guys.”

            You implicitly equate height with attractiveness.

            I am in my forties, but when I was younger I was almost as pretty as Hunter Parish (from Weeds). I say Hunter Parrish, because he’s 5′ 7″ too. In terms of facial looks, I’m a solid 8 (or was so in my 20s and 30’s). I have been paid 200 per hour to pose for softcore gay stuff (I am straight, evidently).

            Also, to this day, I am ripped. I work out 9 hours a week. I am in better shape than most personal trainers. I have been celibate for over 2 years and I put ALL that energy into working out. I have an almost perfect (short) body. And I’m decently endowed.

            But your comment, as I said, implicitly equates height with attractiveness.

            I don’t mind that attractive women want attractive men. I mind that hot girls would rather date fat tall guys than ripped short guys (at least in America).

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          • avery_t Says:

            C,

            also, I have never been outright rejected due to my height. i just see that women post height requirements. no woman has ever commented on my height. i have done pretty well with women too. so, it’s odd that i comment on this stuff. mostly, it’s about what i see in women’s dating profiles. if i had NEVER look at a dating profile in my life, i might be blissfully ignorant of the whole issue of height. but online i see it in half the profiles i look at. maybe i’ve been attractive enough to get a pass. in college, i was a very bad drummer, but some guys invited me to join their band JUST because of my looks.

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          • C Says:

            Yes, height is a factor women consider when they consider attractiveness. If you take two twins, one who is 6’2 and another who’s growth was stunted at 5’2, the taller one will be deemed more attractive, as will the twin with heair as will the twin who is lean and muscular, as will the twin with the prettier, more symmetrical face, etc…

            I promise that slim women who place a lot of weight on physical features are not interested in dating fat men or old men either.

            You are fixated on height. I know plenty of men in NYC who are in their 30s-50s, 5’6 to 5’9 and slightly overweight and have cute wives. But the cute wives are their age, smart, accomplished and not super models by any means.

            Are you trying to date 20-something year old, very attractive women? If so, you will have a very hard time nailing one of them down and not becuase you arent “tall enough”.

            I agree with Goldie. You are height obsessed.

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          • avery_t Says:

            C, I am not pursuing 20-somethings.

            I am not height-obsessed, I see height requirements in 50% of the profiles I view. I’m not sure how much more clearly I can say this.

            My main requirement is a certain waist size and toned abs. I tend to be less demanding about face and very undemanding about breast size. Cute is totally fine, Small breasts are fine. But I go nuts for defined abs that are acquired through running and doing crunches.

            For me, it’s 75% about fitness.

            I am not really that demanding. In prep school, i would have slept with half the girls in school. But back then (late 80’s), women weighed much less than they do now. Also, at my school, EVERYBODY did after school sports (soccer, field hockey, cross country, etc..). So, everybody was in shape.

            For me, it’s pretty much just about being in shape. I’d hook up with a girl who isn’t pretty, so long as she’s in great shape. For me, a woman must have a supermodel abdomen, but NOT a supermodel face or chest. I’m really into abs. That’s about the extent of my requirements.

            You must admit that most people in America are NOT in shape.

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          • avery_t Says:

            C,

            as far as the 6′ 2″ and 5′ 2″ comparison (your twin example), I get that, but what I see online is women saying that men are 6′ tall and immensely better than men who are 5′ 11″. it seems to be the six foot mark that makes all the difference. i’d kill to be 5′ 11″, but i have read guys that height (5′ 11″) say they’ve been rejected for lacking that extra inch. i’m not sure how this plays out in real life bar situations, but women online seem to make it sound like having a height that starts with a 6 is very, very important. that’s like a man saying i’ll date a woman who’s 29, but i refuse to date women who are 30. the number of your age MUST start with a 2.

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          • C Says:

            So apparently, women with washboard abs favor tall men. Thems the breaks.

            I’m tall. Last time I was online, I favored men over 6’2. I ended up in a relationship with a friend I met through work years ago who is 5’11. I stopped wearing my 3 inch heels.

            Get offline. ‘Nuff said.

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          • Goldie Says:

            Looking for a supermodel abdomen first and foremost in a life partner sounds like a winning strategy… not.

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          • avery_t Says:

            C wrote:

            So apparently, women with washboard abs favor tall men. Thems the breaks.

            I’m tall. Last time I was online, I favored men over 6’2. I ended up in a relationship with a friend I met through work years ago who is 5’11. I stopped wearing my 3 inch heels.

            Get offline. ‘Nuff said.

            Avery_t replies: Yes; I concur.

            Thems probably is the breaks. People keep missing my original intent on this board: It was just to say that women judge men on physical traits too. There seems to be this double-standard: Men are evil for caring about weight, but women are not faulted for caring about height. My point is just that

            “no guys under 6 feet”= “no fatties”. That is all I ever wanted to say. That’s it.

            But people have control over their weight.

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        • Howard Says:

          Hot looking women get away with it, not necessarily all women. Average looking women don’t get away with it, when it comes to the guys they really want. A lot of responses from guys you don’t want is not success.

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      • Goldie Says:

        This is the first I’m hearing about women putting this kind of statement on their profiles. No, I don’t think it’s any better, I think it’s just as insane as “no overweight women”. If women actually do this, great – more quality guys for me. I do not have a single negative statement on my profile, and it boggles my mind that anyone would… they are a huge turn-off.

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        • avery_t Says:

          OMG about 50% of the women I check out have a height requirement OR mention height in one way or another (“I feel very relaxed around tall people” etc,).

          Some women say “be a lumberjack.”

          OMG women rated 4 or 5 stars between 28 and 38 talk non-stop about height.

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          • avery_t Says:

            the women who make the biggest deal about height tend to be women who are around 5′ 1″ and women who are 5′ 10″.

            My sense is that women are ashamed to be with a man shorter than their friends’ boyfriends.

            I’m 5′ 7″ and have dated women who are 5′. I tower over them, but I’m still shorter than most men.

            These movie stars are all very short and all date tall men; Christina Ricci, Eva Longoria, Hayden Panettierre, Kristin Bell, Kim Kardashian.

            Ivy League actresses are MUCH less concerned with height: Natalie Portman married a man who’s about 5′ 9″. Same with Kate Bosworth (Miachel Polish is about 5′ 9′). Reese married Ryan Phillipe and Claire Dane was with Billy Crudup (5′ 8″) and now Hugh Dancy (5′ 9″).

            So, it you know only Ivy League women, you may not have encountered the height issue as much.

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          • Sarah Says:

            Avery, we get it: You’re short and bitter. Take it to the MRA Reddit; you’ll find no sympathy here.

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        • DrivingMeNutes Says:

          60% of actresses also won’t date a man with a sissy name like Avery.

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          • avery_t Says:

            Avery is a good Scottish name. But it’s my middle name. It was my great-grandfather’s first name. He went to Harvard and then was an engineer who helped design the railroads in Peru. He was, I think, the person who imported eucalyptus to the New World in the late 1800’s. Apparently, the wood of the eucalyptus tree makes good ties for rail roads.

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          • avery_t Says:

            many actresses date men named Hugh, and Hugh is about as sissy as Avery.

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        • JulesP Says:

          I’m with Goldie!

          Nowhere in my profile do I state what physical attributes I am / not looking for in a man!

          But then again neither do I state that I’m “full of life/sexy/great looking” etc etc ad nauseum.

          Nothing beats a sexily written, humourous profile! Preferably accompanied by a couple of photos of you smiling (and lose the sunglasses and hat).

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        • Lisa Says:

          Height is a searchable criteria on Match and I believe it can be seen on profiles.

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        • Eliza Says:

          I agree with Goldie…negativity gets negativity. And what Moxie wrote was quite direct…but true. When I man comes across so blatantly against “heavy women”, or “no fatties”…that man is NOT the Nice Guy he alleges to be.
          A nice person is more tactful, and knows how to get his point across without being outright offensive.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Avery–womp womp…boohoo. Stop crying like a little girl. Plenty of women are not “chosen” based on their looks or age. Trust me, in terms of “looks/physical appearance” – women in society are faced with more of that pressure to look a certain way…whereas men have different pressures–revolving around success in their careers. I can point you in the direction of plenty of average-looking, overweight men AND short men with beautiful women on their arms. You ask why? Because they have the gift of charm, charisma, gab and just know what to say and how. Avery–you WILL get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. So, stop whining about your height, and compensate in other ways. Start with your “personality” and outlook. Be MORE positive-minded, and you see others will mirror that and reciprocate in a more favorable tone.

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    • Jay Says:

      “statements like that hint at the guy having very antiquated ideas about women and how we think and what we like”. Which is exactly why, if I ever get into on-line dating again, I should include exactly such a statement in my profile. Maybe I WANT a woman who wants a man with “very antiquated ideas about women”. There are plenty of them out there. (Did you know that there’s a website called ladiesagainstfeminism.com?)

      “how we think and what we like” If a man says, “Women want …”, women pile on to ridicule him for supposing that women are all alike and can be so simply summarized. Then they turn around and say, “After all, what women really want is …” indicating that in fact they think that all the women in the world think just like they do, and women ARE all alike.

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  4. D. Says:

    Two tips that are related:

    1. Put some personality into your profile. Are you a boring person? No? Then don’t write like a boring person. I think a lot of people tend to play it very safe. They use minimal description, they don’t write in a way that is entertaining to read, they just…say stuff which is factually accurate, but totally dry. Spice it up a little.

    2. Details and those bits that actually show your personality a bit are a tool for people who want to write to you. It gives them something specific to talk to you about. If you put in your profile that you’ve developed the perfect technique for making XYZ mixed drink, people will ask you about it. Moxie’s bit about the convent? GOLD. It opens the door for discussion.

    Generic profiles, on the other hand, are hard to write an email to. Even if you’re physically attracted to the other person, if their profile is written in flat, dull language, with no real personality or details about them, it’s a pain in the ass to write an email to them. If you find all you’re getting are “hi” or “how r u?” style emails, it may be that the people writing you are dull, but it may also be that your profile needs to be spiced up.

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    • Eliza Says:

      I agree about being engaging and creating a fun interesting profile. But writing that way is truly a gift, not many of us have, which is why investing with someone like Moxie does make sense, if and when you have the time to fine-tune your profile. Writing doesn’t come easily for many of us. The intentions are all good in nature, but writing is a skill to hone an work on. :)

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  5. locke_stocke Says:

    Most online daters simply don’t put real effort into their profiles. The fact that the OP is asking the question is a real step in the right direction. But imagine sending out a resume without having put any thought into it?

    Take an hour a day for 30 days. During those 30 days, stop browsing through pictures of women on POF. Hide your profile. Instead, read every online article you can find on what to put in your profile and what not to. You can quite literally find 200+ different articles if you look. Bookmark them all and reread them each several times. Some of the articles are well written, and some are not, but if you read enough of them, you will have a solid idea of what works, what to avoid, and what ticks the other gender off.

    Spend some time browsing through the male profiles in your age range. Look at the ones that stand out. Ask yourself what makes that profile stand out. Ask yourself what comments you constantly see that annoy you or that it seems like every single man has in his profile. Read enough profiles and you will automatically start cringing when you see the same stuff over and over. Then avoid those things in your own profile.

    Take some time to read as many articles as you can on online dating. Moxie’s blog is a good, solid resource, but there are others.

    Read articles about how to stay in the top of the search ratings.

    OKCupid has a blog which compiles statistics on how certain things, words, types of pictures, etc. get better responses. Read every article (I think there are about 20).

    Have somebody take 300 pictures of you in various lighting conditions, angles and and places. Pick the best 5. Maybe ask someone else (or more than one person) which 5 are the best. What you see is not what others see.

    Then write, rewrite, and rewrite your profile. Do this ONLY after reading everything you can find on the subject. When you’ve written it, throw it away and write it again. Write three different profiles and ask friends to say which they like the best). Remember that other’s opinions are not always best, but listen to what they say, and why they say it.

    Then, post your profile again.

    OK, this might take 60+ days. But it will be worth it. If you’re at least average in the attractiveness range, this will get you results, provided that you’re not messaging women that are simply out of your league in looks, age, etc.

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  6. manwich Says:

    Bachelor #1, 30ya makes 100k as a computer programmer. Above average looking. Physically fit.

    Bachelor #2, 30ya makes 80k as a salesman. Average looking. Slightly overweight.

    If you had to bet, which of these two guys has better luck with women?

    My money is on the salesman. Given a choice, women might pick the computer programmer. All things being equal, the computer guy is better looking, but things aren’t equal. Most women don’t meet men halfway in dating. They usually sit back passively and wait for a man to make them feel something. Attraction is something men see, and women feel. Women want an experience. Salesmen know how to create an experience.

    Online dating is nothing but salesmanship(until it becomes a relationship). An advertising executive would be fired for blandly telling an audience; “you should buy this product because it is a good product, … unless you are fat”. You gotta create some sparkle.

    One trick, is covert bragging. “I’m a good musician”, is both boring and egotistical. “music is my passion, and I love the thrill of performance”, sounds a bit less like bragging, and makes you sound dynamic and exciting. Sure, it’s all still bragging, but resumes and dating profiles are the two times in life when you must brag a bit.

    I’ve struggled in the past with the whole “nice guy” thing. I think it comes down to honesty and introversion. Salesmanship just isn’t my personality. I generally don’t like talking to strangers. I like deep, meaningful conversation. Small talk bores me. I think critically. Smarmy, persuasive people get on my nerves. The thing is, I’m not “nice”, I’m blunt and tactless. I’m impatient of all the silly games that go into dating. I want to just be myself, and have beautiful women appreciate me for who I really am. This is hypocritical. If I were so nice, I’d marry an ugly woman for her virtue.

    I think you just have to accept dating for what it is. Salesmanship is to a man what beauty is for a woman. It’s easier for a guy to develop his salesmanship skills, than for a woman to become beautiful. Good salesman read books and improve their delivery. Don’t go too far with this though. There is a lot of bad advice out there in the “red-pill” “manosphere” sites. Anything that reads as misogynistic or angry should be avoided. Good salesmen don’t hate customers.

    If you can’t stomach a little salesmanship, date down. Find a less attractive woman who isn’t accustomed to smarmy douche bags, and you can be your honest nerdy self. If you want to compete for the most beautiful women, then accept it for the game that it is.

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    • Lisa Says:

      Honestly, I don’t think it always comes down to the smoothest, slickest guy. In fact, that can be a turn off.

      Looks and basic stats are huge! If he lives outside of my geographic radial limit, if he’s too young or too old, not the religion or ethnicity I want or if he’s too short or too out of shape, it deuces. Same thing, if I simply don’t find him physically attractive No getting around it.

      Beyond that, I want to see that we might have something in common or we might both be looking for something the other possesses. Maybe I can’t have kids and he is a single parent of a toddler. Maybe I love to talk and he is good listener. Maybe we both like ballroom dancing. Whatever. But I want to see something in the profile that makes me say, “Yes, that’s what I’m looking for!”

      I’d have to say both of your musician examples fall flat. I’d rather read: I’ve been in an R&B band for the past 5 years; I play the keyboard and do back up vocals. It’s so much fun!

      That’s neither boring for egotistical. It just is what it is. If I like R&B, or I want a guy who can sing to me or I like going out to hear live music, my ears/eyes will perk up. And the fact that the guy has a hobby implies all the necessary passion and dedication I need to know about. And it gives me immediate conversation starters – what’s the name of the band? where are you playing next? when did you start playing? do you any good music teachers; my son wants to learn?

      There’s someone out there for everyone. But you gotta put who you are on the profile. Not in a fancy way or a modest way or a boastful way or a nice way or a schmarmy way. Just put it out there.

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      • Howard Says:

        Smooth goes too far, and smooth operators are not the best salesmen. The best salesmen are always really interested in you, and helping you. All great salesmen know the most important law of getting rich. “To get rich, you have to make someone else rich”

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  7. Lisa Says:

    I’m used to men who write short, basic profile narratives. Not a huge deal to me. I actually find the really wordy, overly engineered prose (like Moxie’s, for example) a tad irritating (no offense, just saying).

    The issue IMO is that the OP comes across as uneducated by his poor sentence structure. That’s a big deal. And so is the term “girl.” If he is looking for someone female btwn the ages of 45 and 60, then he is looking for a WOMAN. Also he seems too focused on what ~he ~ wants. Well, it’s not all about him. What’s in it for me (the woman)? What’s the prize I get for responding to a message from him? Oh, I get a 55 yr/old not ugly guy who thinks of grown women as girls. No, thanks.

    I want to hear about hobbies, how the guy spends his day, a little bit about his values or priorities, and a few of his goals.

    Something like, “I’m high school prioncipal by day and an antique car restorer by night who can fix just about thing. I am on a bowling league and work out at the gym 4 mornings a week. I’m not much of a cook but I sure do love Italian food and checking out all the hot restaurants I hear ppl at work talking about. I have one grandchild and I love taking her to the park.”

    Short and sweet. And I, as the woman, will see exactly how I fit into the picture. Oh, he can’t cook…well, I can spoil him w/ my wonderful culinary talents! Oh, he can fix things? I have a hole in my wall and my shed is falling down. He has a grandkid? I wonder how old; mine is 3 and maybe they could do play dates at some point. I love going out to eat…I wonder if he’s been to SuchandSuch yet? Hmmmm, he’s in shape…I need to get my butt to that zumba class…as soon as I say hi to him…

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      **I actually find the really wordy, overly engineered prose (like Moxie’s, for example) a tad irritating (no offense, just saying).**

      Succinct yet meaty is the sweet spot. You want to be sure to communicate concrete things and yet still show some personality and sense of fun without getting all long winded and purple prose-y.

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      • Howard Says:

        Just a little of that air of mystery works well for guys. I also believe profiles, that are too long, backfire. I know a woman wants to discover me on the date, not in the profile. She needs enough to say, “hmmm, he seems nice or hot, let me see what he’s about” Overselling is a real issue on these long profile things.

        With women, and the long profiles they write, guys just never read them completely unless they are extremely well written enough to suck us in. We scan quickly. We sure do look at the pics though.

        I think when guys read women profiles, it’s more like we’re looking for: she gets it; she’s got a warm personality’ she is not stuck on herself. Every time I tell women this, they get upset. It’s hard for them to stomach that all that stuff they put in there, misses the mark. But it’s no different from the self aggrandizement, that guys put in their profile, which we all know works poorly.

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    • HammersAndNails Says:

      I’m guessing I may be opening a can of worms here, but personally, ‘woman’ has an ever so slight negative connotation. If I were to tell a story and refer to one person as a girl and another as a woman, you already know which one I’d rather date.

      I totally understand why some adult women dislike it, but just an fyi figured some women may be interested in knowing that if their peaches are still in season, girl is probably not always meant as dismissive or pejorative.

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      • manwich Says:

        I would never refer to a coworker as a girl. I cringe when I hear men around the office say that. In the professional world it seems disrespectful, but I think girl/boy sounds right when there is some kind of sexual interest.

        If a chick-friend of mine says, “I met a boy”, I know she likes this fella. “I met a man” sounds like she hired a new accountant.

        Chick, by the way is just a female “dude”. It implies an informal relationship. Woman-friend sounds weird, and girlfriend means you are dating.

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  8. Paul Says:

    Hearing about all the mistakes that guys make reminded me of a couple of my pet peeves commonly seen in women’s profiles.

    1. IMO, if you have to tell me you’re “classy”, I’ll think you’re not.

    2. If your profile says you’re looking for a “real man”, I’ll think you’re looking for the guy who used to bully my friends and I in the school parking lot. He’s welcome to you.

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    • D. Says:

      I think generally that if you have to say how wonderful you are, you probably aren’t that wonderful. I suppose using some adjectives may be worthwhile, if it’s not one of the overused ones out there, but really, your profile should probably speak to the fact that you’re [adjective] without actually saying it.

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      • Goldie Says:

        Seriously! The “show, don’t tell” principle applies just as much to online profiles as it does to writing in general.

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  9. msM. Says:

    I have said this on another thread, but just having basic information does the job for me. What kind of career does he have, how does he spend his time when not at work, and what are his interests in general. I am thinking, if we were together, could we find activities we both enjoy? Do we have anything in common? Are we on a similar intellectual (or insert what you value here) level?

    ANY mention of “romance” “finding the right lady to share my life with” is an off.

    Agreed about the weight comment. UNLESS you are RIPPED, it comes off badly. I mean if a man goes to the gym a lot, does marathons and all that, I can see why he wants (and needs) a partner of a certain size and fitness level, so they could work out/run together. But I have seen profiles where the man in question is not actually fit or particularly thin himself. Personally I don’t care a whole lot about looks or weight in men, but i would not go out and say it on my profile. I also don’t care about height but that was a good point, women are pretty inflexible when it comes to height.

    I have also seen a certain amount of anger on profiles from men who complain about hearing from women they are not interested in. Again, if the man in question not extremely handsome/”high value”, it backfires very badly. I just never see handsome/generally desirable men complaining about who writes to them on their profile, it’s usually people who are NOT what they think they are and happen to be angry about not getting the ‘hotties’ they think they are entitled to.

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    • Lisa Says:

      I agree w/ just about everything you wrote.

      I, too, have noticed a lot of anger in men’s profiles. One man even wrote this, “if you have spent the better part of your life being the side ho, I’m not interested. Plz do not contact me if you have no self esteem and are accustomed to being treated like garbage. Plz hit the back button if you can’t appreciate the love a real man. Yes, I’ve run into several like this and fortunately i’m almost healed.”

      This is almost verbatim what the guy said!

      I couldn’t believe it. Who would find that remotely appealing? Would he even be able to get out of the house w/ a chip on his shoulder that big?

      Yes, I see these more than I’d like to admit.

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      • D. Says:

        To be fair, that’s true of men and women alike. For every man out there with a “Don’t contact me if…” section, there’s a woman out there with one, too. These kinds of “French General” provisions really just indicate that someone’s bitter/burned.

        I had a few in my profile for a while, on the theory that it “saved time” or whathaveyou, but after reading this site, I decided to ditch them and only write about what I was looking for in a positive sense. I knew what my dealbreakers were, and could probably filter out someone just by reading their profile, or by spending an hour or two talking to them. Plus, I actually think that being more positive about what you want (instead of negative about what you don’t want) can help get you to a place where you’re generally more positive and upbeat about dating, and consequently are a more fun date.

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      • manwich Says:

        I guess I haven’t read a lot of men’s profiles, but it seems like guys are saying “this is what I’ve got to offer”, and women are saying “this is what I need”.

        Men do tend to be more socially inept, and lacking in communication skills, so I guess I expect more from the ladies, but men and women probably both suck equally at dating. We deserve each other.

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        • msM. Says:

          manwich, I think essentially there is a misconception that men have to “impress”/”seduce” women on their profile.

          I feel that most women actually just want to know about a man’s life, basic background, what he does on and off work, what he’s into in terms of interests and what he is looking for. This is enough information to determine basic compatibility.

          One issue I have come across though is that sometimes a man will mis-represent himself on a profile and that is worse in the long run. A person may build a grandiose idea of what he is and does but when you meet them they are not like that at all. (I have met someone who lied about career, (“finance” meant IT); 3 inches shorter; 6 years older; said he has a master’s when he didn’t). So keep it direct, truthful and simple. A little lie is no big deal, it’s normal, but several lies is a problem.

          That is why basic, honest & specific is always better.

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  10. HammersAndNails Says:

    It’s not really my style either way but I’m curious. Could you explain what about “looking for a woman to share my life with” is a turn off? Other ladies feel the same way?

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      It’s not so much “yuck” as just kind of bland and generic. You’re trying to make yourself stand out and convince someone why you’re fun and worth talking to.

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    • manwich Says:

      I think it’s presumptuous to assume anything more than looking to meet an interesting person to have a date with. Putting the long term goal up front seems needy. Everyone wants to fall in love, but let’s just start with some drinks on a patio bar. First things first.

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    • msM. Says:

      Well the thing with the “finding the lady…” comment is that it goes into the “romance” cliché and it generally means that the man in question is trying to “seduce” a woman instead of being upfront about who he is and what he wants. It’s not just *one* comment profiles like that tend to have a few of those, it’s quite consistent.

      After reading your comment I just realized that maybe online dating is not really about “seduction” and “romance”, it’s more about finding compatibility, at least for women.

      Usually profiles that have a lot of clichés tend to describe women as objects to be pursued, not as full-fledged characters with lives and interests. In the past I have made the connection that virtually all the messages I would get that would say “you’re such a pretty lady I am ready to fall for”, etc… would come from men with bland and vague profiles.

      It’s the online dating version of buying hallmark card instead of just saying it straight.

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    • Lisa Says:

      It’s such a cliche. It’s right up there with “I love long walks in the park.”

      I think creating a list of bad cliches NOT to use in a profile would be a good article here…if it hasn’t already been done.

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  11. AC Says:

    I think Moxie is spot on this time. If you want people to pay attention to your profile -be engaging.

    Btw…no one cares if you’re a “nice guy.”

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  12. Grizzly Says:

    He says he’s a nice guy–does this mean he is a generally friendly person, or a “nice guy” as in a beta? That makes a difference.

    What on the LW’s profile shows that he is a fun or exciting guy to be around? Does he have cool exciting hobbies–does he shoot guns, practice kung-fu, ride motorcycles, etc., or does he sit around collecting stamps? That makes a difference.

    As for not wanting overweight women, that might be tough because a large percentage of women on dating sites–at least OKCupid–range from chubby to severely obese. Putting the fact that he doesn’t want overweight women on his profile might be curtailing his responses because many women are extremely self-conscious about their weight, and so many women who might not be overweight are still offended and ignore him. He should delete that from his profile and then simply ignore the fat women. Still, there’s nothing inherently wrong or immoral about him stating that on his profile. Women put on their profiles all the time things like “No bald men,” “No short men,” etc, yet I don’t see anybody complaining about the chicks who write that kind of stuff.

    I know that women in their twenties are bombarded by tons of messages on dating sites, and so only respond to a very small percentage. Is this true for older women as well?

    If he wants more success at getting women in his preferred age range, he’ll be much better off going to where they congregate in real life and then striking up a conversation.

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    • msM. Says:

      Yeah I mean the weight thing means the man will be critical of the woman’s appearance. In fact, most women are uncomfortable with their bodies, even and especially, the thinner ones. So by stating he doesn’t want someone “overweight” a woman who is thin but has a little belly will think twice about this. You do know how most smaller women actually think they’re “fat” in some way.

      A man who criticizes a woman’s appearance is a universal red flag. Not because he should or should not date “fat” people, but because this means – from the perspective of women – that he will focus on flaws, and that is something women already do on our own. Again, if the man were attractive that is another story, it is within his right to be picky, but there is nothing more off-putting than a man who is not obviously “high value” and complains that he is NOT getting the types of women he wants. The reality is that you simply NEVER see this type of complaint on profiles of attractive men. They are presumably too busy with equally attractive women to notice the others he doesn’t like.

      The difference between criticizing a woman’s appearance and a man’s appearance is that a woman’s “value” in society and also in her head is quite tied up to the concept of appearance, whereas a man can be butt ugly, “fat”, and that will not be not used as a weapon against him in any way, as long as he is successful. A man’s appearance is not seen as a hallmark of his position in the world, of self-worth, or achievement of any kind.

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      • C Says:

        It makes me chuckle a little when fat guys make fun of “fat women”.

        Exactly! Even thin girls occassionally put on a few and when they do, the last thing they want to hear is “Don’t you think maybe you should skip the fries”.

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      • avery_t Says:

        “A man’s appearance is not seen as a hallmark of his position in the world, of self-worth, or achievement of any kind.”

        Not true. Short men get passed over for promotions all the time and they tend to get paid less than tall men. A man’s height is a big factor in determining his professional success in corporate America. Also, his success in the world or dating.

        Most women think 6 feet is average height because most short men simply stay home alone.

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        • Goldie Says:

          No offense, but I sense some height-related issues from reading your posts. If any of that shows in real life, that’s a far bigger turn-off than the fact that you’re 5’7″. I’m 5’9″, my last partner of two years was my height (though he categorically denied it, lol), and I dated a guy who was 5’6″ or 5’7″ and who has no problem getting any woman he wants. He is just fun, spontaneous, super confident, and, well, “has game”. Granted, I am not dating in a place like NYC or LA, where I admit it might be harder, as people there place more emphasis on the looks, from what I’ve heard.

          Also, at one of my old jobs (ironically, Avery) every. single. man in our division’s upper management was short, like 5’5″ short. Somehow they all managed to get promoted. A man’s height might be somewhat of a factor in determining his professional success, but it’s not nearly as big as you think.

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          • avery_t Says:

            Goldie,

            I spent many years in the Ivory Tower, where many professors are Jewish guys around 5′ 7″. So, I never thought about height. My dissertation advisor was 5′ 8″. It never occurred to me that I lacked height.

            In Manhattan height is a very, very big issue. If you have never dated in NYC, you shouldn’t comment. In the Wall Street culture in NYC, it is VERY hard for short men to get ahead. In a town like Seattle, it might not be. But, to be fair to reality, the average height in my neighborhood is about 6′. That does seem to be average. Lots and lots of tall guys here.

            Anyhow, my original comment (way, way up near the top of this thread) was in regard to someone saying men who judge women on weight are bad people. I just said that I see many women judge men on height. My initial comment was just that women do it too.

            I can’t stress how frequently I encounter height requirements online. Maybe I’m part of some okcupid psych test in which a few men are shown ONLY profiles like that. Please, just take my word for it: I see it A LOT.

            Let me be clear, I spent most of my life as a stud. I was SO successful that I literally (literally!) thought I could move to LA and date movie stars. For me, the most toxic thing in my life has been okcupid. My life up to joining was good.

            This begs the question: If my life was sooooo good, why did I start online dating? Mainly to find Jewish women with doctorates (I’m a half-Jewish guy with a doctorate). Also, I am psycho into fitness and wasn’t meeting anyone who’s as psycho into fitness. So, I started online dating to meet Jewish women with doctorates who work out two hours a day.

            People will down thumb this post because I mention education and fitness.

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          • ATWYSingle Says:

            If my life was sooooo good, why did I start online dating? Mainly to find Jewish women with doctorates (I’m a half-Jewish guy with a doctorate). Also, I am psycho into fitness and wasn’t meeting anyone who’s as psycho into fitness. So, I started online dating to meet Jewish women with doctorates who work out two hours a day.

            Let me be clear, I spent most of my life as a stud. I was SO successful that I literally (literally!) thought I could move to LA and date movie stars.

            You mean like Kate Beckinsale and Jessica Biel?

            Holy. Shit.

            I know who you are on OKC.

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          • avery_t Says:

            ATWSingle,

            So what?

            If I recall correctly, you emailed me first (I didn’t email you) and you sent me a nasty message. Is that type of unprovoked lashing out something you would condone if someone else did it? If your readers knew you lashed out with unprovoked email on okcupid, they might not respect you as much. You wrote to me FIRSt by sending me hate mail. Is that how people online should conduct themselves?

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          • Goldie Says:

            So you look for “Jewish women with doctorates who work out two hours a day”, and who also, according to your post above, “appear to be very attractive and who have a slender, fit, athletic body type”.

            That’s a super limited dating pool. How many people actually fit this profile? even in NYC. And out of those, how many are straight, available, actively dating, and are interested in you? And out of that, very limited, number, how many are actually a good match for you and you for them?

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          • ATWYSingle Says:

            So what?

            If I recall correctly, you emailed me first (I didn’t email you) and you sent me a nasty message. Is that type of unprovoked lashing out something you would condone if someone else did it? If your readers knew you lashed out with unprovoked email on okcupid, they might not respect you as much. You wrote to me FIRSt by sending me hate mail. Is that how people online should conduct themselves?

            First of all, you’ve been commenting here for a very long time. Long before I emailed you.

            Here was my email to you:

            Your profile has to be some kind of performance art. Nobody can be this lacking in self-awareness.

            Here was your response:
            you’re really fat. old too. have a good life.

            Your profile had porn on it, dude. A whole album of it. Nobody can actually think that works. Your profile screams for attention of any kind.

            I could list out the numerous ways why your profile doesn’t work and why you’re having such problems, starting with your weird obsession with celebrity culture and your admissions of your projected yearly incomes for the next 5 years, but it would go in one ear and out the other.

            I’ll short hand it for you. It’s not your height that’s the problem. You brag about things that to most people in Manhattan don’t matter. Really? You brag about being 42 and renting a studio in Tribeca? Oh, sorry. TriBeCa. You live there because that’s where the movie stars live. You desperately want to be part of their world.

            You brag about making $150K a year and admit that 100K of it comes from a trust fund. Which means you make 50K a year “day trading”, which everybody knows means, “I play with Mommy and Daddy’s money for kicks.”

            Your photos are all bathroom selfies or eons old and PS? Half of them are taken on the same day, but you time stamped them different years and messed with your hair and shirt. Look in the background, dude. The contents of your medicine cabinet are exactly the same and in the exact same order. That doesn’t happen year to year.

            You make no mention of friends.

            Your weird fixation with celebrity culture is another problem. You compare yourself to movie and TV characters, and post photo albums of Kate Beckinsale and Jessica Biel to demonstrate “your type.”

            And finally, you demand that women who contact you have a 24-25 inch waist. Are you for real? Do you not understand that you don’t make enough money or lead the kind of life to be able to feel that entitled? You’re a trust fun kid who sits in his Tribeca apartment Playing Wolf of Wall Street on a loop.

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          • avery_t Says:

            goldie,

            how is any of that relevant? i started day trading 2 years ago. my income is growing by the year. in five years, i should be affluent enough to buy a place in TriBeCa. then, in ten years, a summer cottage in the Hamptons.

            in the meantime, I keep my nose to the grindstone, work out almost every day, work on my fashion sense, and read philosophy.

            The number of women who are interested in me online depends on whether or not I list my income. When I list my income, hot 29 year olds send me email. When I list my income, I get 3-5 new email a day and about 5 high ratings a day. But I also get nasty messages from women who live in Bushwick and Astoria telling me I’m a doucehbag for listing my income. When I do NOT list my income, I get some email from pretty Asian girls (Asian girls don’t mind that a man is under 5′ 10″).

            Most of the very handsome men who are my height (5′ 7″) whom I see around NYC are with very attractive Asian women.

            who knows about good matches? i just try to find women who like the same books, TV shows, and foods. hence, my pursuit of women with a similar level fo education.

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          • avery_t Says:

            ATWYSingle,

            You said: Your photos are all bathroom selfies or eons old and PS? Half of them are taken on the same day, but you time stamped them different years and messed with your hair and shirt. Look in the background, dude. The contents of your medicine cabinet are exactly the same and in the exact same order. That doesn’t happen year to year.

            This makes no sense. Why would I say current photos are older photos. Consider your logic here. You imply that I took photos this year and then said they were older. Most people who lie do it the other way.:They say older photos are new.

            Yes: many of photos are old. But I date them by year. I simply do not have many photos of myself. Is that a crime?

            Anyhow, the contents of my cabinets have NOT changed. I’m a guy. I buy the same soap year after year after year. I do not have anything in my bathroom, because I’m a guy. I use the same tube of hair gel for eight months. I have cologne, hair gel, band-aids, and soap in my medicine cabinet. That’s it. What else would a guy have in there? Advil? Bacitracin?

            Also, I’m not bragging about anything. I’m stating. I’m not sure why you thought I was bragging. Why “bragging?” I like thin women I think that fact makes your blood boil. I think you HATE that some men prefer women who are thinner than you and that you secretly want all those men to die. I think you find it an intolerable thought. I think you have hatred and rage in the marrow of your bones.

            When I was totally poor and living in a shoebox studio in east Williamsburg, I had the SAME requirements. I got laid. My requirements have not much to do with income I have or do not have. I would rather sleep alone than see a chubby woman naked.

            I will inherit five million dollars in six years. I have avoided stating that in my profile, but I tried to encode it by mentioning the gradation of my income over the next few years.

            And, you’re correct: Most of my income is from my family, but a man with a trust income of 100k/yr who makes over 75k/year day trading is making 75% for the year (if he invests all his money), which is an f-ing incredible return. Your ignorance about investing and returns is showing here. If a man says “I get 100k from a trust fund. I invest 25k of that and I expect to turn that into 75k in one year, and he DOES accomplish that, the man is a better investor than 95% of the hedge fund guys on Wall Street. It’s all about percentage of return. It’s not about actual amounts of money.

            When I say I will have 175k in 2014 and 100k of that comes from a trust. You must assume that I live on 75k and invest 25k. It follows that I expect (with some justification) that i will turn 25k into 75k in one year. That’s a return of 200% on the year. Most traders make 10% a year. If I can make 200% a year, I’m a trading god. Same if I turn 25 bucks into 75 bucks in one year through trading.

            I am not rich, but I have the skills to be an incredibly successful day trade.

            I certainly do not BRAG about living a studio. My tone could be read as apologetic, which is why I mention my goal to get a 3BR in a few years. I’m ashamed that I have only a studio.

            You see it all as idiotic bragging. If I do NOT specify how I come by my income, women think I am lying.

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          • avery_t Says:

            ATWYSingle,

            also, time-stamped? No. I wrote the dates in a caption.

            Your reply below indicates that you are not smart enough to understand any comments I have made about investing and returns. Your remark about my “time-stamped” photos is just incorrect, and suggests you have a bad, unreliable memory. There are no time stamps on my photos.

            You went to Emerson. You are probably not smart enough to get any of this. How do I know? My mom went to Emerson, and my mom is not that smart. I love her, but she’s not that smart. I do not love you.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Avery – you seriously need some deep therapy/couch time with a specialist/psychologist – about your inferiority complex with respect to height. Be proud of who you are, what you look like, and the right woman will accept you AS YOU ARE.

          Geez. Be content with your health, and life…and work with what you have.

          Confidence over most other qualities – is what truly makes and keeps any worthwhile woman interested.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Boohoo…time for therapy sessions! Even in the acting industry…if you have what it takes – you shine. Example: Danny Devito. He’s ultra short. But he managed to break into acting. Not necessarily a good looking man either.
          Excuses, excuses. Confidence is key. If you don’t feel worthy of meeting someone – because of your inferiority complex–you will not.

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    • C Says:

      “Women put on their profiles all the time things like “No bald men,” “No short men,” etc, yet I don’t see anybody complaining about the chicks who write that kind of stuff.”

      I dont read through womens profiles so I dont know what women say. If you’ve read the profiles of women who actually say “no bald men” or “no short men”, they are narcissistic morons! Guys should be glad these women advertise what jerks they are.

      If you cant write 2 paragraphs about yourself without making disparaging comments about someone else, theres something wrong with you!

      One of my friends had a great rule for writing profiles: no negativity. Isnt it better to tell the world how great you are rather then how snarky and judgemental you are?

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      • PrairieDog Says:

        Some women DO put stuff like that in their profiles: “No fat guys”, “No gamers”, “No rednecks”, etc. Some also list rather demanding requirements, pretty specific ones, and I’ve always wondered how much response they get to those kind of demands. I would never include anything on my own profile that sounded like a demand, but I’ve seen them in women’s dating-site profiles for years, before that on Craigslist posts, and before that in newspaper personals. I’ve never heard or seen anyone advise women “Don’t be so demanding in your profile”, so maybe it doesn’t put men off. Since I seldom look at men’s profiles, I don’t know if men make similar demands.

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        • C Says:

          Well, apparently men do make demands about a 24-25 inch waiste and a doctorate. Lol. Actually, I think I used to see demanding men more several years ago but not so much lately.

          I dont pay much attention to those profiles because they just sound bitter and angry. “Dont contract me if you are X” or “If you are X we are not a match”. I recall a number of men ranting about “not being into drama”. Please! Whats more dramatic then a guy who opens with, “I am not into drama. So dont contact me if you are!” Lol.

          In any event, I dont pay much attention. Those guys just sound damaged.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Someone like Avery would never be able to grasp the concept you just made.
        Merely by reading his absurd replies to others on this board, is enough criteria to predict his ongoing failure in social connections with the opposite gender.
        He has a self-esteem issue derived from his “height issues”. And he clearly has resentment towards women, since any intelligent woman would run in the other direction–after reading such a negative profile as his.

        Nice guy? Not!

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    • Lisa Says:

      Hmmmm nice guy vs. “nice guy.” Interesting question.

      Personally, I don’t think “nice guys” realize that they are “nice guys” or even have more of a passing awareness that the “nice guy” phenomenon exists.

      I think “nice guys” are genuinely trying to be nice guys but their efforts are misguided.

      Your thoughts?

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      • Goldie Says:

        This is quite a spin-off off the original topic, but yes, I’ve had bad experiences with “nice guys”. I’ve found men who market themselves as nice guys to be confict-avoidant, passive-aggressive, people-pleasers, i.e. the kind of guy that will drive you up the wall if you get into a relationship with one. Oh, and they know they’re “nice guys”, because all their friends keep telling them so.

        I think everybody (with a few sociopathic exceptions) genuinely tries to be nice and to do right by others; but that some people just do not have the people skills, the self-awareness, and do not understand other people and human interactions well enough to succeed in that endeavor. With those guys, the more they try to be nice, the more they end up hurting those closest to them. They do mean well, though.

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      • C Says:

        Personally, I love nice guys. However, when I say “nice”, I mean ethical, compassionate, thoughtful, kind, etc… I’m not sure how you are defining “nice guys”.

        In my experience, a lot of men who are refered to as “nice guys” arent nice at all. They are just passive, submissive and non-threatening. These men once they feel they have the upper hand in a relationship (from my experience) may not treat a woman well at all. They are cowards. Nothing more.

        The men who I’ve known who were truly nice guys were not weak or passive by any means. These men really care about others and will stand up for what they believe. If someone was asked to describe the men I think of, “nice guy” would be among the words to describe them but it certainly wouldnt be the first description to come to mind.

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        • Lisa Says:

          This is exactly how I operationalize the term “Nice Guy.” (Should have been capped in earlier post.)

          A annoying mental condition in which a heterosexual man concocts over simplified ideas why women aren’t flocking to him in droves. Typically this male will whine and complain about how women never want to date them because he is “too nice” or that he is average in appearance. He often targets a woman who is already in a relationship; misrepresenting his intentions of wanting to be her friend and having the expectation that he is owed more than friendship because he is such a good listener. He is prone to brooding over this and passive aggressive behavior.

          He is too stupid to realize the reason women don’t find him attractive is because he feels sorry for himself, he concludes that women like to be treated like shit.

          (from Urban Dictionary…not my normal reference source but very accurate in this case)

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          • C Says:

            I think I know that guy! Lol. That guy also tends to be a bit delusional and go for women he could never get.

            My cousin had one of those make a pass at her right after her separation. She was a very attractive 28 year old and he was her “friend from work” and a VERY overweight, needy, depressed 40-something. Suddenly he sends her this email (EMAIL!!) saying something along the lines of “I know a lot of guys wont want you now because you are a divorced single mother, but I care for you and want to adopt your daughter.” He then proceeded to send her a nude photo of himself when she was already in a relationship saying “This is what I looked like when I was on the college swim team”. OMG!!

            Thirteen years later, my cousin is happily married and still invites this “friend” over when she has a party at her house mostly I think out of pitty. Creep!

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  13. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    The most interesting part of the exchange here is the willingness (compulsion) of some women to engage a clearly deranged person. Clear to the rest of us at least. I’m sure this guy gets dates.

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    • avery_t Says:

      how am I deranged? Do you mean to use the word “deranged”? What I say accords with reality. You may not like what I saw. You may not like me. But what I say accords with reality. If you think I have said something that doesn’t accord with reality, specify what that is. Otherwise, you are just a troll.

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        Technically, we are part of the gnome family. I believe trolls are typically larger. But, yes, you’ve got the basic idea.

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    • C Says:

      I know, I know. But alas its irresistable! You could call it “The Jerry Springer Effect”. I dont know why I’m watching it, and yet I cant stop! A derangement of sorts on my end I suppose.

      I have to say that I do find it interesting that a guy who is so hypersensitive about his own physical limitations would make such nasty comments about Moxie’s physique and call a woman his own age “old”.

      Cant we all just get along?

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    • Goldie Says:

      Yes, the man is deranged, but, looking on the bright side, this thread is now comedy gold.

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    • rouend_doll Says:

      I find it funny that you didn’t mention anyone by name, but a person clearly took your post personally.

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  14. Tinker Says:

    Avery- since okcupid has been so awful for you I trust you are not on it anymore?

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    • avery_t Says:

      not anymore

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    • avery_t Says:

      but, like I say above, at times, okcupid has been very good to me. When I list my income and mention my trust fund, I’m very popular.

      but reading height requirement after height requirement gets me down. it’s a steady influx of negativity over which I run my eyes on a daily basis that serves only to lower my self-esteem.

      okcupid and match are different, in this respect.

      on match, members are asked to tick boxes indicating their preferred height range. okcupid does not have this feature. therefore, women must actually put into words their height preference. to a guy, seeing a height range in checked boxes seems a whole lot less definitive that seeing a woman write out in words her height requirement. the first gesture, is just part of creating a dating profile. you check boxes without much thought. but when someone takes the time to state in words her physical preference, it seems much more serious. okcupid is almost unique in this, and I would guess that the whole blog dialogue about height requirements is coextensive with the rise of okcupid. before okcupid, most men probably didn’t KNOW that women had height preferences. the whole online discourse about height requirements probably does not pre-date the birth of okcupid.

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      • Lisa Says:

        Women’s height requuirements on Match are probably less stringent bc the ranges are searchable and will exclude ppl who do not fall within. And no one wants to lose out on an otherwise good match over an inch. So we are more “forgiving” there.

        Height requirements/ranges given in open-ended narrative form are going to be more stringent bc they are just empty words. No one pays attn. No one is excluded. No one is identified. So talk big! Throw your best set of demands out there! Maybe by saying “at least 6 feet” you are deterring men who are 5’6″ and under from responding…maybe.

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      • Tinker Says:

        Wait a minute- you can’t filter by height in OKC? No wonder it’s brought up so often then! I’m sure women put a lot of thought into the box they check for height on Match, as much as the women who write it out on OKC.
        For some women, height trumps all. And that’s okay, it’s not all women. For some men weight trumps all. And again it’s fine, it’s not all men. If you still manage to meet people you like, why worry about it so much? Neither one is unfair, neither one is wrong, it just is.

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      • mindstar Says:

        Avery if your investment skills are as great as you say they are why AREN’T you working for a Wall Street hedge fund?

        You’d certainly be able to accomplish your stated goals quicker and I’ll bet the average woman would be more receptive to a job title of “investment banker” as opposed to “day trader”

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  15. ATWYSingle Says:

    I think you HATE that some men prefer women who are thinner than you and that you secretly want all those men to die. I think you find it an intolerable thought. I think you have hatred and rage in the marrow of your bones.

    Easy there, Hamlet.

    I couldn’t give less of a shit what kind of women you find attractive or don’t find attractive. Nobody is more starkly aware of what most men prefer than I am, and I write regularly that that’s life and to focus on your audience. I have an audience. I focus on them.

    As for the rest of your verbose soliloquies, I’ll just say this. You’re not having a hard time with online dating because you’re 5’7″. It doesn’t help that you lie and say you’re 5’9″. You’re having trouble because your profile makes you look genuinely and pathologically delusional.

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  16. msM. Says:

    Waiittt…is Avery the guy who had THE CREEPIEST PROFILE ON OKC???
    The one who said he wanted someone who looked just like Jessica Biel??? Because “jessica Biel is perfect”.

    Who “lived on the same nice Tribeca building with Ashley wassername celebrity” , “a building good enough for a celebrity”, who was going to “triple his income in ____years” ???

    LMAO

    I read that profile once and i have never forgotten it. It was incredible. DUDE, seriously. Do you seriously think women don’t email you because of your height. You’ve got to be kidding. You sounded like a poor man’s Patrick Bateman wannabe. Your height is the least of your problems. You’re out of touch with reality, let’s put it this way.

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  17. NB Says:

    Ha!! I remember that profile too! !! I sent it to all my friends; it was pure comic gold. It was so outlandish that we thought it was probably a joke. I love how he thinks 150k/yr is going to attract the model-quality chicks he so clearly deserves. This is NYC, not Topeka. And as a rule, people who actually have money don’t talk about it, that is, if they have any class. You ‘expect’ to triple your earnings next year? Yeah, and I bet the girl who just contacted you ‘expects’ to have a 24 inch waist next year.

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  18. nb1972 Says:

    And I’m sure if he doesn’t triple his earnings, well, that’s all about his height too, because as he mentioned, only tall guys (like Lloyd Blankfein and Mike Bloomberg) succeed on Wall St.

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  19. AnnieNonymous Says:

    I’ve mentioned it before, but my least favorite dating profile missive is, “I love/am passionate about music,” especially if the guy doesn’t appear to have a music-related job or play an instrument. So he plays his iPod in the car? He’s been to a few concerts in mid-sized city venues?

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  20. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Should be obvious, but it’s not for some reason. Don’t post bad pictures. Even the most attractive woman will look unattractive in that instant when a picture is taken doing the following (i) crossing the finish line at a marathon or other running race, or exercising (ii) sky diving (iii) zip-lining (iv) scuba diving (v) laughing maniacally. General rule of thumb, if you’re sweaty or contorted when a picture is taken, the picture’s probably not flattering. The fact that you’re active and extreme things may be attractive to some guys, I suppose, so state that in the text if you want. But, never post ugly pictures.

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  21. manwich Says:

    There are two things going on here. Each one of us is both a salesman and a consumer. We need to be charismatic as salesmen, but skeptical as consumers. Smart consumers need to be weary of clever salesmen.

    DrivingMeNuts has good advice for salesmen. The pictures you are the most proud of, may not be the most flattering. On the flip side, however, I’ve found that the types of women who post those dynamic action photos end up being better looking in person. Beauty is attractive, but vanity is a turn off. I’m skeptical of the women who try too hard to carefully construct their image. Some women know exactly what their best angle is, so all their photos are duck face glamour-shots from the same angle. They aren’t gonna get through an entire date holding that pose. I wanna see what the other side of their face looks like. Women who proudly post unflattering photos, seem like they are comfortable with themselves, and not trying to hide something. I’d rather date someone who knows how to have fun, than someone who looks good only from one angle in just the right lighting.

    A picture really is worth a thousand words. Truly well written and interesting profiles are few and far between. I’ve met brilliant, articulate people, who just didn’t put much work into their profile. Some of those rare, fun and interesting profiles turn out to be boring people who probably hired someone to write their profile. (that’s bait and switch! Moxie owes me a date!).

    It’s harder to lie with photos. “I play kazoo” is boring. “I’m good at kazoo” is bragging. “I’m passionate about music, and can wail on my kazoo all night” is much better, but it’s all just empty words. A picture of you rocking out on stage with a kazoo really tells me something. Pictures in snow pants and ski goggles need to be banned from Tinder, but other than that, I wanna see a person in there element doing the things they love to do. The context of the picture tells a story that is much more sincere than a paragraph of text. A bunch of home alone slefies tells a very sad story. Seeing someone out in the world having fun tells a different story. The girls night out group hug, is another annoying cliché. It shouldn’t be your main photo, but it’s good to see that you have a social life.

    A woman should have at least one flattering glamour shot (a man should NOT!). Give us some understated sex appeal. Cleavage is crack (he he). Show us how you look at your best, then show us who you are and what you like to do.

    I really do think Tinder is the wave of the future. If they would just add height, religion, and political belief, I’d be done with OKCupid for good.

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  22. LostSailor Says:

    Whew. Scrolling past the spot-on-topic of avery_t’s height issues and stalkeryishness is hard work (though, I do know some short, Wall Street types who are very much like him and I can asure you, this level of self-delusion cannot be cured, only mocked).

    But back to Wayne’s problem, which, as many have noted, he has violated the cardinal commandment of online dating (actually all dating, really): THOU SHALT NOT BE BORING.

    Wayne writes the “truth” that he’s a nice guy who is nice to be around, is “not ugly” and is looking for attractive, non-fatty type women who are smart funny and romantic….

    …which describes 90% of people online.

    Never, never say you’re looking for attrative, slender women. We’re pretty much going to assume that this is kind of base-line and doesn’t need to be said. Just ignore any messages from unattractive fat women like the rest of us do.

    But as others have noted, being NOT BORING is easier said than done for a lot of people. It’s not writing about your active and exciting lifestyle, it’s about being intriguing. Like a resume, you only have seconds to make an impression that will encourage someone to read more, and then you have only a minute or less to convince them to want to know more. When I’ve been hiring for a project, dreading wading through hundreds of resumes, I usually can tell off the bat from a quick scan whether the person is worth a second thought. The same is true with an online profile.

    Profiles that succeed take work. They take thought. When I first got online for dating, I, too, had a fairly generic profile and realized that it probably wasn’t going to make me stand out. So I tried a number of different approaches, all designed to be funny, creative, and show my sometimes wry sense of humor. It took months of rewriting and tweaking before I was satisfied. It wasn’t until I started getting messages referencing one line (“I’ve finally come to peace with the realization that I will never perform in the Ice Capades”) that I found my tone, though I’ve since changed that line. My profile is off-beat, says very little about what I do, what my hobbies are, etc. The only section that is at all straightforward is the books/music/movies section and I’m thinking of deleting most of that anyway.

    Cliches can be useful, if you can turn them around. As in “I like long, romantic walks on moonlit beaches and the gentle sound of the lapping waves of deadly shark-infested waters.”

    But, primarily, Wayne, remember: THOU SHALT NOT BE BORING. And if you are, then that’s what you need to work on…

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  23. msM. Says:

    this Avery guy’s profile is actually “famous” and has been written about before:
    http://thestir.cafemom.com/love_sex/152717/mans_hilariously_crazy_dating_profile

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    • ATWYSingle Says:

      I think it’s shitty that The Stir wrote about him and outed his profile name. I can’t tell you how many times I wanted to discuss this guy’s profile. I knew that if I did, it could go viral because it was THAT crazy. While I honestly think this guy has some psychological issues, I can’t stand it when sites like The Stir take it upon themselves to fuck with guys for no real reason other than to look cool.

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  24. Jay Says:

    “If you say in your profile that you’re looking for a woman who isn’t overweight, you’re not the nice guy you think you are. The whole “No fatties!” stuff is really offensive.” Is your objection that he should not care what a woman looks like? Or that he shouldn’t say so?

    I’ve seen plenty of profiles by women that say they are looking for a man who is “financially secure”. I’ve never said, “Oh, she only wants to date rich men. How offensive!” I think we all know that men want pretty women and women want rich men. You can moan about how terrible that is all you like, but you’re not going to change it by telling people “stop it right now!”

    If he’s not going to get involved with a fat woman, or a woman of a different race, or a woman who doesn’t like football, or whatever, what is gained by hiding that fact? It seems to me that preferences that are easily stated might as well be stated up front, so folks don’t waste their time.

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    • Lisa Says:

      I agree. But I would remind folks to be as diplomatic as possible when explaining these preferences.

      Say, “I’d like to meet a woman who shares my Christian faith” or “a woman whose Christian faith is a priority in her life.”

      Not “Don’t message me if you’re Jewish or Muslim!” or “Atheists need not apply”

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    • msM. Says:

      It’s kinda of like that one okCupid question, are you open to dating someone outside of your own race? If a person answers no then well even if it’s true it is still kind of icky to read. It’s about how you come across, not what the TRUTH is.

      I would usually read profiles of people who wrote to me, and whenever I came across these no-no statements I cross the person off immediately. One guy wrote me a message, who was very average looking, 18 yrs older, badly dressed, not particularly successful, not attractive, not interesting, AND “geographically undesirable”.

      He had on his profile something like “please if you’re my age… I can’t stand pictures of children and your grandkids and please don’t write to me if are like that…I like younger women by the way…I feel younger and look younger….” etc…

      You can have that attitude if you are in high demand, if you score really high on the hotness/wealth/value/something scale…if you don’t, all of that falls apart. You’re basically an asshole, with nowhere to go.

      I wrote him back and told him that no woman, my age or “his age” was going to write to him or take him seriously because he sounded like an horrible person with no awareness of where he actually stood.

      I swear I love reading male profiles but I have NEVER seen a profile of a “high value” man that had these types of complaints. Guess what??? They are happy and enjoying their top status and meeting their high-value counterparts!

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  25. Jay Says:

    I don’t claim to be any sort of expert at dating or writing dating profiles. My one foray into on-line dating led to a marriage that lasted a year, and I am now contentedly single. (I’m just reading this for amusement, not really looking for useful advice.) Maybe you have some deep insights here, but I find most of your distinctions incomprehensible.

    For example, you say that it is worthless for a man to describe himself as a “nice guy” or a “gentlemen” because these are trite clichés. But then you give an excerpt from your own profile in which you say that you are “looking for someone who seeks a partner, a sounding board, and a companion”. Umm, what woman does NOT say that she wants a man who “seeks a partner”? As opposed to what? A woman who really really wants to find a man who seeks a sex toy that he can use and throw away?

    “Knowing how to treat other people with respect should be a given.” Well, maybe so, but in real life it isn’t. There are lots of people in the world who don’t treat others with respect. The fact that someone says that he or she does of course doesn’t prove that they really do, but it at least tells me that they realize that this is something that matters.

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