If You Can’t Get Laid Without Serious Effort, There’s A Problem

Alias (DO NOT USE A REAL NAME!!): Playful Kittendatingtrip
Comment: I’m in my mid thirties and have been single now for a year. I’ve had a couple of hook ups and one proper date (which I instigated).

My problem is I never seem to get hit on when I go out. The last time it was a married guy and I quickly got out of that situation. I don’t do married.

I’m trying everything to look approachable, smiling and  making eye contact with guys I think are cute but nothing ever happens. It seems as though I am surrounded by men already in relationships. Even just getting a hook up is hard. I get matches but they never bother to start a conversation or reply.

The only guys I seem to end up with are only after one hour stands (seriously never been longer than that ;) )

One guy said that men are probably scared to approach me so what should I do other than always have to make the first move (which doesn’t always pan out).

Age: 36
City: Camden
State: London


Even just getting a hook up is hard.

The only guys I seem to end up with are only after one hour stands (seriously never been longer than that ;) )

Okay, folks. Buckle up. This is going to be one of those posts.

The simple and most likely answer to this is that you’re putting yourself in situations where you are either a) flirting with guys who are out of your league or b) surrounding yourself with women these men find more attractive.

The issue isn’t that you’re intimidating or that men are somehow apprehensive about approaching you. Know how I know that? Because you can’t even get laid without making a concerted effort. People say things like, “Oh, guys are just intimidated by you” because that’s easier than saying, “You’re not attractive enough to pull the guys you want.” That doesn’t mean you’re not attractive. It means, and pay close attention to the verbage here, you’re not attractive enough to pull the guys that you want.

If you’re putting yourself in a setting where you’re surrounded by other women, you’re immediately setting yourself at a disadvantage. I’m talking strictly from a numbers perspective. If you’re 36 years old and hanging at bars or pubs or going to events that mostly attract a twenty-something crowd, that’s part of the problem. You need to put yourself in situations where you stand out. That means going to events that attract a thirty and forty something crowd.

Let’s be honest, single women. We often opt for the bright and shiny than the tried and true. We find the younger men more attractive, too. If we didn’t, I wouldn’t have a column. I can’t tell you how many profile review sessions I have where women in their forties insist upon focusing on the men in their mid to late thirties guys rather than pursue men their age or older.

“But..but…I get a ton of emails from guys in their twenties and thirties!” they say. Super. We all do. It means nothing.

“Well, have any of those guys turned out to be men you’ve dated long term?” I ask.

The line goes quiet. “Well…I still see some of them.”

So that’s a no?

If I hear one more man or woman express disdain for dating someone their own age or older because, like, ewww,  I’m going to lose it. So what that they’re not as active as you’d like them to be? You’ve been doing all those activities on your own for this long, why can’t you continue to do so? Why do they have to share your love of zip lining or yoga or whatever else you do? Who cares? Okay, fine, you don’t want someone who stays inside wearing stretchy pants all day watching TV. I get that. But stop acting like there are the active people and the couch potatoes. There’s an in between there. You’re using the activity issue as an excuse to justify you’re own ageism and discomfort with getting older.

Stop posting photos that are 3-5 years old, people. (This goes for men and women equally.) Stop presenting yourself as though you’re not the age that you are. Cease and desist with all the mentions in your profiles about how you’re young at heart or don’t feel your age or how people always mistake you for younger. And set reasonable preferred age ranges. Holy bejeebus. If you’re a person in their late thirties or older – man or woman –  and the lower end of your age range spans 10 years but the higher end spans, like, 3 years, you look delusional and rigid and ageist. It’s not cute. It’s sad. Don’t get me wrong. You can actually prefer and pursue that age range. Just don’t make that public on your profile. Fake it. Pretend.

And for those few who are going to whine about how I don’t root for my readers or some other such nonsense because I dare to suggest that someone might cast their net a tad too far, understand this. I’m not going to apologize for the fact that I see things for how they are rather than how you wish they would be. As for the other sub-section of perpetual complainers, no, I’m not saying take what you can get. I’m saying focus your efforts on people who want you, as I will almost guarantee that once they’ve gotten it out of their head that they’re probably never going to get that bright and shiny puppy, they’ll see that there are a plethora of other options that they find equally attractive.

End rant. Back to the OP.

Regardless of the type of men you choose to pursue, the trick is to get them away from all the other options surrounding them.

If you meet a guy online that you like, you need to get that first date set up pronto. Don’t allow the conversation to lag because the longer you go chatting without meeting, he’s on that site messaging other women. Screw the rules and gender roles and the oh I like a man to be a man bullshit. You have to ask him out. You have to be assertive.

See someone at a party or gathering that you like? Approach him. Get really comfortable with the possibility of being rejected and just walk right up to him and introduce yourself. That’s one way to separate yourself from the crowd.

If you’re never getting approached, there’s a reason for that. It’s not just random bad luck. If you struggle to get a guy to have sex with you, that’s a huge red flag that something is off, something that you’re not mentioning here. Is it a third eye? Do you have a hump on your back? I don’t know. It could be as simple as you’re as picky when choosing casual sex partners as you are when trying to find a relationship. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m the same way. But if you’re not converting any of these initiatives into a sale, so to speak, and the few you are closing don’t stick around for more than an hour then Houston, there’s a problem. If these guys don’t stick around longer than an hour, then I really hate to say this, but that sounds like they were having sex with you just to get off and probably weren’t attracted to you. If these men aren’t coming back for seconds or hanging out or anything, then something is very, very wonky.



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93 Responses to “If You Can’t Get Laid Without Serious Effort, There’s A Problem”

  1. Eliza Says:

    Exactly! Do I find men in their 30’s very appealing. of course…what’s not to like about a guy that is very fit, confident, energetic, with great skin, and doesnt have complaints about dislocated shoulders or knee problems! lol…not that every older man complains about these things. But – no, I would be wasting my time – trying to date one of these days–and then I wouldn’t have any justifiable reason to bitch about not being able to have a monogymous long-term situation going. I am 46, and I will NEVER say I look younger, or feel younger,blablabla. It is what it is, I am 46, the bottom line, biologically–that’s my age. No point in dating men much younger. And yes, for me IF a man is fun, engaging and we hit it off–even a 55 year old man may appeal to my senses–depends. Not matter how much you state about not posting older photos on websites–You will blue in the face..people will continue to do so. A year old, OK, but 5-10 years?! Geez. And yes, unfortunately, my going to venues that attract a 20-30 something crowd is fruitless, since I will appear even “older” – trying to act like some “cougar”. No thanks. Unfortunately, there aren’t many places that attract a 40-50 crowd–not that I know of…in NY or the outerboroughs. If someone knows of great venues…please by all means, share.

    • mindstar Says:

      Eliza, Moxie does speeding dating events for the 40+ crowd. There’s a also an outfit called Boomer Parties that does events (generally dances) in Manhattan. Age range run the gamut from 40s to 70s.

      • mindstar Says:

        Apologies for the spelling/grammar errors. Been a long day and its not even noon yet.

      • Eliza Says:

        MStar: Oh–you mean like similar events to those of George Bernard or Steve Fox parties? The last time I went to one of those in the city – the majority of men there were in their mid-to late 60’s/70’s. Just my observation and experience that particular evening. I was just wondering – whether there were any “venues”–restaurants or dance places, etc…but I guess nightclubs or places like that generally cater to the much younger crowd…especially on Sat. evenings (what people have termed “bridge and tunnel”) crowd? But thanks.

  2. Lisa Says:

    Unless the OP attached pics of what she looks like, we’re all just stabbing around in the dark trying to guess what the problem is. Some ppl just don’t have good curb appeal and need to develop other aspects of themselves in order to stand out. What the OP needs is an honest (possibly gay) male friend who can coach her through this.

    • ATWYSingle Says:

      Do you get all your ideas about dating and sex from reality shows?

      I’ll say it more blunty: if someone struggles to get laid – especially a woman – it’s probably because there’s something about their physical appearance that is getting in the way.

      • Lisa Says:

        Point taken…yes, you definitely implied that. And it might not be actual tangible body parts but could be an awkward way she carries herself or a tense facial expression, a really bad sense of style, whatever. Like the memes say, “this thread is useless w/o pics.”

        • ATWYSingle Says:

          but could be an awkward way she carries herself or a tense facial expression, a really bad sense of style,

          Yeah, it’s none of those things. We’re talking about what men need to have sex, not what women think men need to have sex.

          • Lisa Says:

            Men aren’t going to refuse to sleep with her bc of those things. But she won’t be turning any heads.

        • Grizzly Says:

          No, its most likely IS “tangible body parts,” as in her hips and butt covered in excessive amounts of fat. The first thing most of us men consider when we think about a particular woman’s sex appeal is how physically fit she is, i.e. whether or not she’s fat. That is Numero Uno. The size of her tits, the roundness of her butt, and the prettiness of her face are all very important, but deficiencies in those areas can be made up for with an overall high level of fitness. Unless she’s sporting a purple mohawk or wears t-shirts advertising Satanic death metal bands, most men won’t notice her sense of style. Hell, since so many of us are color-blind we often can’t even tell what color a woman’s shirt is, let alone if its fashionable or not. Don’t forget, the fashion industry is primarily geared towards women.

          If the only action she is getting is nothing more than a 1 hour quickie, and 99% of men are actively avoiding her, then the reason is pretty obvious–she is fat. I don’t mean a little overweight, because a lot of men will overlook a small amount of extra weight, but truly and severely obese. Of course she doesn’t say this straight out, but unless she has a Siamese twin or horns growing out of her head, obesity is the most likely explanation. Nothing repels a man like obesity. The solution to this is obvious–boycott sugary treats and fast food, and exercise 8 hours a week. If she does this for a year, I you guarantee her sex life will improve drastically.

  3. Eliza Says:

    If ALL a man is looking for is sex…and then to leave…a lack of style, or awkwardness shouldn’t be such a concern to that man, since all that comes to play and of interest for that particular night – or 2 hours – is physical appearance, “sex appeal”…it’s very surface, a short-term arrangement. Men will not take other factors into consideration, since they are there for one reason alone. I know–rather bluntly put, but reality. Age won’t even be an issue–as long as there is mutual “physical connection” – and mutual appeal based on the physical.

    • Lisa Says:

      OK but the OP didn’t say she offers men no-strings-attached-sex and they reject it. She is getting sex. But she’s saying men aren’t beating down her door for much more than that.

      • Tinker Says:

        She has been single for a year and has had one date and a couple ( I’ll just say two) of hookups. That sounds like 3 ( at most) encounters to me. And she couldn’t get them to stay more than an hour? She’s putting effort into this and she said even getting a hookup is hard- you know most women could blindly go out on the corner and hook up with a guy. I feel for the OP because something is going on here.

  4. Howard Says:

    Before I get into the OP let me clarify something in Moxie’s rant. If what you want from younger people, is a brief fling and you are willing to deal with all the issues involved with dating younger, I see no problem in listing the younger spiel in your online profile.

    The problem is that most women can’t deal with what’s involved. Most men can, except the delusional few who fail to be able to enjoy a good ride while it lasts.

    Let’s deal with the OP story now. This paragraph says a lot:

    “My problem is I never seem to get hit on when I go out. The last time it was a married guy and I quickly got out of that situation. I don’t do married.”

    Do you see the conflicting testimony? Yes, a married guy did hit on you. So this starts to suggest the idea that you are not getting hit on by the people you want to hit on you. And most importantly, you are waiting patiently to get hit on.

    Ms. Playful Kitten, I think you are still trying to get a guy that maybe could be convinced to hang around after you have ensnared him well, with what you imagine to be the best sex out there, and you also want him to jump through hoops to get that sex from you. You also only find guys out of your league, as sexually exciting.

    If that’s what you want, the question I ask of you: Are you really hunting or waiting for things to happen like an entitled princess? If you are sitting at a bar/lounge, I don’t know too many men who will refuse a drink from you and you asking them to dance. Even very good looking guys who would normally be way out of your league, who have nothing going on, will say to themselves, “why not?”

    The problem is that good looking guys aren’t going to do the heavy lifting. However, most men like low hanging fruit, so you have a window. I guess you are going to have to learn to flirt and get in close, touching and whatever.

    The paradigm of men always approaching and wooing and paying for stuff and waiting with baited breath, is non-productive for a woman on the hunt for sex. It’s time to get really proactive, especially if you can’t help yourself with only liking guys out of your league.

  5. msM. Says:

    I’d think the OP may be going to the wrong places? In our age range the best bets are professional events in which you are involved in some capacity so that there is a context already in place. Also, meeting friends of friends, going to see live music, museum groups, whatever interest you have, find the places where people with similar interests gather, or just go to every party and dinner party at a friend’s house. This will take the edge of the “I NEED TO FIND A MAN” vibe. The OP might be desperate judging from her choices.

    Bars/pubs are not great places to meet people who are looking for serious relationships. I’d say the OP should try online, you’d definitely hear from some people, I think it’s a much better option than bars. It’s a rehearsal of sorts.

    The other thing is to try and have some honest opinions from two friends you trust, one male and one female, as to how you can improve your presentation realistically. Someone close to you may be able to tell you some modified truth that is probably not what you want to hear, but it’s closer to the actual objective truth.

    • Lisa Says:

      Adding to the list: join a co-ed gym, start jogging in a park where men jog, walk your dog in a park or let your dog run around in a dog park, go to happy hour w/ coworkers, do Race for a Cure and similar events, join a singles group at a church, people watch at busy outdoor venues, take an evening class (that you’re genuinely interested in), take a Saturday morning class at Home Depot, volunteer for neighborhood activities. Tell friends and relatives you’re open to being set up on blind dates/double dates.

      • ATWYSingle Says:

        Yeah, no. You don’t run in a charity event to meet men.

        Everybody knows about all of these options. Nobody utilizes them for good reason. They’re a waste of time. If you’re going to repeatedly offer your two cents, could you please reserve that for discussions where you actually have experience with the topic?

        • Lisa Says:

          I’ve met men doing all of the above, Debbie Downer.

          • ATWYSingle Says:

            Yes, but you’re in your sixties. You did these things either because no other more convenient options existed or because there are fewer social/digital opportunities targeted to people in your age group.

          • Howard Says:

            Lisa, I don’t think it’s all about the event or place. You met people because you wanted to meet people. I think the OP’s problems have more to do with her than the place.

          • C Says:

            Thats a good point, Howard. You can meet men walking down the street or any public place if the men are motivated to come talk to you.

            Moxie is right. A 30-something year old woman who has trouble getting a hookup is really strange. Theres something the LW isnt telling us.

        • Kurt Says:

          A lot of 5ks in big cities do have some type of social event after a race, such as a beer tent and sometimes a band or music playing. I personally have never met anyone I didn’t already know after a race, although I think it is possible. Some races also have an after-race party at a bar or restaurant.

          • K Says:

            I know one person meeting their husband doesn’t make it a good place to meet men, but I do know someone who did. She wasn’t the cutest and it allowed her to meet someone who wasn’t into online or going to bars. They are close in age and he was more into a woman who was into the outdoors and running than a certain age. It def made me think about it as I like staying in shape and running, but b/c of an injury I had to rule it out. This couple was late 30s/early 40s. It had a charity component so there were events at bars etc you could go to and meet other runners.

        • Rugbychix Says:

          Moxie lives in a very specific dating world which sometimes creates blind spots. I know many, many, many, many friends who have met their SOs and husbands in mutual social settings revolving around physical activity or sports. The setup makes perfect sense; mutual interest, physical activity, almost always followed up by drinks in a big enough group to mingle but without getting lost in the crowd. How could that not be a good situation for a person 20-40 to meet someone?

          And that’s not even talking about Crossfit boxes…which can be a great hookup source depending on the mix of male/female, gay/straight.

          • ATWYSingle Says:

            There’s nothing wrong with the avenues suggested to meet someone. My point was that WHERE she was meeting the men wasn’t the problem. But, as usual, a certain segment of people want to disregard the obvious and talk out their ass and deconstruct aspects to this issue that are totally irrelevant just to have something to say. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT YOU CAN MEET PEOPLE DOING AN ACTIVITY. That’s not a revolutionary idea.

            These comments are utterly useless to anybody outside of the 5 or so people who just won’t. stop. talking. Literally ZERO value for the most part. It’s a god damn coffee klatch where a bunch of people with nothing better to do squat her and chit chat all day.

  6. msM. Says:

    That’s not what I meant, Moxie, “charity” events. I meant MUSEUM that is not the same. I worked in the arts for years. I meant museum young collector groups and other arts organizations if you are on the “money” side OR You can meet people at art openings, performances and events if you are more “alternative”. I have in-depth knowledge of the arts and that is why I connect with people at art events. You have something to talk about, basically. It has worked for me. Literally.

    Obviously you don’t appear to be interested in the arts but I still think meeting people and connecting with people through something you are passionate about is a great first step. This could be ANYTHING from cooking classes to exercise classes, to music, to whatever it is a person is passionate about.

    Sheesh. You aren’t very nice but that’s Ok, I like the blog anyway:)

    • ATWYSingle Says:

      That’s not what I meant, Moxie, “charity” events.

      I wasn’t speaking to you. I was referring to Lisa’s suggestion that the OP meet guys by doing things like Run for The Cure.

      I love the arts and participate in a few groups that revolve around art and writing. But I don’t do them to meet men.

      • Lisa Says:

        I’m not 60. I just turned 40 a couple of months ago.

        No one is telling you to participate in charity events to meet men.

        I’m suggesting it to the OP…who is asking for help.

      • Lisa Says:

        The idea is that the OP may not be able to rely on her looks to turn huys’ heads so she needs to put herself in an element where she can shine or allow ppl to see her excitement, passion, kindness, strengths, whatever.

      • msM. Says:

        oops sorry Moxie my bad

  7. Yvonne Says:

    I’m not getting why this thread has taken such a nasty turn…

    Anyhow, the thing that stands out for me is, “I get matches but they never bother to start a conversation or reply.” That sounds to me like she is dating online. We can debate the merits and options for meeting people in real life, but isn’t that what online dating is for? To make it easier to meet people you wouldn’t normally meet?

    If the OP is doing online dating, and people are not replying or even contacting her, then something is wrong. I don’t know what she looks like, but it might be worth her while to invest in some professional photos. Some people are just not good judges of what makes a good image. A friend of mine insisted on posting a really unflattering photo of herself online because it was with a family member, and to her it was “cute”. She couldn’t understand why no one was contacting her.

    • Lisa Says:

      Sounds most like Tinder but could be any site or even speed dating.

      But unfortunately, the issue seems to cross over to offline interactions, too. Maybe she needs a makeover?

  8. Jayson Says:

    Moxie deftly pin pointed what the problem is for the letter writer and the women here can not accept the truth. Grizzly wasn’t delicate when he expanded on what Moxie was trying to say, but he was spot on as well. The problem here is that there’s something about this woman’s physical appearance that is turning men off. A make-over or new outfit or different location will not make a difference.

    If we’re desperate enough we will have sex with women we don’t find attractive. Women think we need to be attracted to get aroused and we don’t.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “Women think we need to be attracted to get aroused and we don’t.”

      There has to be a minimal level of attraction for me; I’ve turned down a few (though admittedly not many) women who propositioned me because they weren’t attractive enough for me to be sure I could perform. I can’t just close my eyes and imagine it’s someone else.

  9. AnnieNonymous Says:

    I think she’s probably trying to lead with sex as a bait-and-switch into a relationship. Though I am tired of the “women can get sex whenever they want” trope. It’s just not true.

    Another potential problem is whether or not her social milieu is relatively small. It’s easy to complain about not getting hit on when you go to the same bars and see the same faces every weekend.

    • Eliza Says:

      I agree with Annie, also keep in mind that depending which bars the OP is going to – that is, if she is frequently places where there are very attractive and fit women, her age or younger? Sure, the competition is fierce…and yes, the men there WILL have other options, perhaps more appealing…moreso if ALL they are seeking is physical gratification…a quick fix. That’s why it’s important to go to events, or places that cater to one’s age group – give or take a few years younger and older. And nothing wrong with the OP going to events that truly encompass her interests…whether it be running, cooking, an evening class, etc…but to merely take up these interests with HOPES of meeting a man is futile…and will only make her seem “desperate”…and that is construed as being quite unattractive. Similar to men who attend these “Meetups” – and then hit on women there – that are just there to network. Or men who go to the gym just to lurk and check out women working out. It’s creepy.

      • Rosenkrantz Says:

        “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about”- Oscar Wilde

        “The only thing worse than being creeped on is not being creeped on.” – me

        Women complain about creepers. Wait ten to fifteen years. You won’t have anything to complain about.

        • Goldie Says:

          “Women complain about creepers. Wait ten to fifteen years. You won’t have anything to complain about.”

          My 76 year old mom would disagree with you.

          You talk about being creeped on like it’s a good thing, or a validation of a woman’s attractiveness. And it’s not. It’s not about the woman at all, it’s about the guy doing the creeping.

          I agree with Eliza that, while joining social groups for personal growth, to pursue your own hobbies, meet new friends etc. is a great way to go, that, when a woman or a man joins the same social groups with the primary person of finding a partner, it shows, and it does these people look unattractive and desperate. I see men and women like that at meetup events all the time. They make for good peoplewatching, that’s for sure.

    • C Says:

      Sorry but I’m pretty sure a 36 year old woman can always get sex. She may not like the guy willing to sleep with her or the terms (i.e. casual, no strings attached, etc…) but I’m pretty theres always a guy who will sleep with the average 36 year old.

  10. Dark Sarcasm Says:

    Realtalk: the OP must be the size of Rebel Wilson x 2.

    Most of us men will stick our penises in anything except a paper cup full of needles.

    The only thing that would have us running for the hills is obesity. Overweight is one thing, obesity is another.

    • Eliza Says:

      eeesh! You mean to say – men will actually have sex is a woman that is downright “ugly” – scary in the face, as long as she is not obese???! wow. So much for being somewhat choosy. Not saying, a man should have a mile-long check list of physical attributes. But, a bit surprised that men are this sex driven.

      • Grizzly Says:

        You’re surprised that men are “this sex driven?” This isn’t a secret. Pretty much all men consider this common knowledge. I’m surprised that some women don’t realize this. Of course, its always a case of “the hotter the better,” and men definitely have their personal preferences–for instance, I like redheads and Japanese girls. But, if you can’t get what you want, and the chick is better looking than Lena Dunham, at the very least we’re willing to get our rocks off with her.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “So much for being somewhat choosy.”

        We’re a lot choosier when it comes to relationships, but sex is just sex. Of course, when there are several options in front of us, we’re going to choose the best one–by male, not female, standards.

        “a bit surprised that men are this sex driven.”

        If so, then you’ve been remarkably unobservant regarding male behavior since you were, say, 12 or so. This is not news.

    • Tinker Says:

      I am completely surprised that women are surprised by this! Not being snarky st all- I am shocked. From when I first learned what erections were I learned that arousal in (young) men can be as arbitrary as a stiff wind- nothing personal. Doesn’t mean he can’t be aroused by you personally of course, but it means that sex is no indication of ‘like’ or even strong attraction.

  11. msM. Says:

    I’m surprised too:) I thought men only hit on women they found attractive? I’m confused. There is such a focus on looks for men yet they are also able to have sex with women they don’t find attractive? I guess it is relative to options? What do you say to a woman you are not attracted to and yet would have sex with? We women are SO self-conscious about specific body parts (thighs, etc..) and yet to you guys, that doesn’t matter??? How could sex be important to you if you don’t value the other person…we’re so different, it’s actually funny:)

    I am not attracted to many people so I can’t imagine what it would be like to just have sex with pretty much anyone. That completely cheapens sex to me and sounds so gross to be honest. But I guess it’s a good eye opener. I am trying to wrap my head around sex being “so important” to men yet men having sex with someone they don’t value at all. I guess it must be a lower drive to men. Men are weird.

    • msM. Says:

      wait about the comment

      ” I am trying to wrap my head around sex being “so important” to men yet men having sex with someone they don’t value at all.”

      I am thinking now, it sounds so awful to say, but it sounds like if you follow this rationale women are a means to an end. In other words, you can have better quality sex presumably with a hotter person yet it’s more important o fulfill the sex need than the bonding need. In other words, women are objects through which sexual release is obtained. The woman herself matters less than her condition as a means to an end.

      This explains the inane messages on Okcupid and why they are always the same and so stupid. Because you are not perceived as an actual person, and more as a willing receptacle that speaks? So the lowest level of communication is used. This is actually very helpful, seriously.

      • Dark Sarcasm Says:

        Most men will have sex with any woman if the opportunity presents itself.

        Would most men walk up and flirt with an ‘ugly’ woman? Probably not.

        But if this ‘ugly’ woman came onto a man and made it seem like sex was a possibility, and he was horny enough and this man had no other options? Yes, more likely he would…unless the woman was really overweight, which may or may not be the OP’s issue.

        This is sometimes the law of the land. Where have you been?

        • msM. Says:

          Thank you this helps. No i did not know that, seriously. I have been over here on the women’s corner . Where – I have learnt via blogs – “women tell each other what they want to hear, not the truth”.

          I think all women – maybe i am wrong – hold on to the idea that he must have “liked” you if he wanted to have sex with you. Which is what women feel about men, we have to like them minimally if we want to have sex with them. Yet I have learnt tonight that this is not true at all in the case of men.

          I guess what you are saying is that men would not initiate contact/pursue an unattractive woman, she would have to pursue him and indicate sex is available with minimal or zero romance requirements. Interesting.

          Then there are these men complaining on Okcupid when women who are not “hot” contact them. I guess they complain because they’d have to maybe pay for something on and go on a date and that would mean investment which is something men are not into if the woman is not “hot”. In the case of “unattractive” women, connection works ONLY in the horizontal position.

          So this confirms women’s theory that FWBs and Casual are a total waste of time if you are looking to bond with someone. The least the man does to “earn” sex the least he is going to care.

          • Grizzly Says:

            I think you’re correct in that women feel a man “likes” you if he chooses to have sex with you, simply because women are typically more emotional than men are, and thus they interpret the world according to their emotions. Men tend to be much less emotional (but we are not heartless), and so we tend to see things in a more utilitarian way. Our goal in sex is moreso the sexual release, rather than the emotional bonding. Nothing is 100% black and white of course, but in general this is true.

            Men will certainly pursue an unattractive woman, but it depends on his ability to obtain attractive women. Women don’t usually need to pursue men; unless she is deformed or severely obese, men will do the pursuing. The indication on her part is important. If she shows that nothing sexy is going to happen in the near future, he probably won’t waste much of his time.

            I don’t look at men’s profiles on OKCupid, but its probably safe to say if he is complaining about hot women not contacting him, the problem is with him and not the woman. Men typically do the pursuing, and the complainer for whatever reason doesn’t seem to understand this. Men will “invest” (and not just money, but also effort) in a date if they feel its worth their time. Exactly how much they are willing to invest is a different story. Your average man will most likely be willing to invest more effort and money for a chance of sex with Scarlett Johansson than with Lena Dunham.

            FWB and casuals are not for bonding–this is 100% correct. FWB is just for getting your rocks off, nothing more. As for “caring,” men care about sex in-of-itself quite a lot. But, what does the chick do to make the man care for her as a person? Can she cook? Is she sweet and charming? Does she come over and take care of you when you’re sick? Caring for sex and caring for the person are two different things.

          • C Says:

            Im not sure what you mean by “likes you”. Do you mean “physically attracted to you” or do you mean “wants to get to know you”?

            I have been rather surprised too when I’ve heard guys say something about being repulsed by some attribute of a woman and continue to see her/sleep with her. Shortly after I graduated college, I worked on a project where 100% travel was required. A few celebate months into the project, one of my friends confided that another coworker had “seduced” him. He then went on a rant about how repulsed he was with himself for doing it because he didnt find her at all physically attractive and she had been a friend of his to boot. “Then”, he added, “a week later it happened again”.

            That should pretty much answer your question.

          • msM. Says:

            C: By “likes you” means he likes you as a person, not as a means to sex.

            I recall conversations with other girlfriends about this, “he must have liked you, there was chemistry, etc…” which is TOTAL BS, now that I know better.

            Evan Katz has this thing where he says you should judge men by how he treats you when you are NOT together. How and if he pursues you. which is so right. Sex has nothing to do with attachment for men (the way it does for women).

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “I think all women – maybe i am wrong – hold on to the idea that he must have “liked” you if he wanted to have sex with you. Which is what women feel about men, we have to like them minimally if we want to have sex with them. Yet I have learnt tonight that this is not true at all in the case of men.”

            Well, it’s probably true to an extent in most cases; I don’t have sex with women I don’t “like”, and I don’t think I’m all that unusual in that respect. But merely “liking” someone as a person is a far cry from considering them relationship material or even merely a friend.

        • Rosenkrantz Says:

          I’m male. Yup. As long as she’s not fat or much older, I’d probably take her home. Fat or grey hair.

          My male friends and I have lamented the gradual disappearance of 8’s and 7’s from the landscape. Most women seem to be 9’s or 5’s and 6’s. What’s happening is that the former 7’s and 8’s are gaining weight and lowering their level. Twenty years ago, the world seemed populated with 7’s and 8’s. But the world is getting fatter.

          Most men are thrilled with an 8 and mostly okay with a 7 (if she’s cool and smart). 9’s can be very high-maintenance.

          Someone said men are very focused on looks. This should be amended to “men are very focused on weight.”

          For white guys, it’s 90% about weight. That’s about it.

          Working with Girls, Zosia Mamet is a high 7. She’s got a decent face and she’s more or less slender. She’s not Wonder Woman, but if a girl like that has a good personality, most guys would be happy to date her. She’s not a cover girl, but she’s on the slender side of average.

          • Eliza Says:

            RKrantz–I agree: But the world is getting fatter. …
            Yes, and that is not gender specific either. Tons of FAT men out there, and it isn’t pretty, my friend.
            When they unveil, and they have stomachs the size of Buddha…that can completely destroy a woman’s libido in zero seconds. And yes, men are focused on Looks–nothing earth shattering about that news–and guess what – fitness/weight = looks to some extent. There are people who lose weight for their weddings/partners–not for themselves…and predictably so–they gain it all back–after time sets in. As opposed to people who actually enjoy staying fit. It’s a lifestyle, not a quick overnight change.

    • Grizzly Says:

      Men have an innate need for sexual release. We prefer to have it with the youngest and most beautiful woman possible, but if necessary a slightly overweight 34 y.o. will do.

      See if this comparison helps.

      Lets say you have a sweet tooth, and all of a sudden you have a hankering for pastry. Would you rather have a gourmet strudel made by a 10th generation Austrian pastry chef using a secret recipe handed down through 3 centuries, using the finest hand-churned butter and the freshest apples, or would you rather have cheap grocery-store turnovers straight from the freezer? Now, if you REALLY need to satisfy that sweet tooth, and you can’t get the fine Austrian pastry, do you starve yourself or get the cheap supermarket stuff? The answer is, you get the cheap supermarket stuff because despite not being able to get the best pastry available, you still absolutely need that sugar blast. Of course, the Austrian strudel is far superior to anything else and you will always take that over any other option, but if you can only get the cheap stuff, then that’s what you’re stuck with, and that stuff is better than nothing at all. That’s how men see sex.

      • msM. Says:

        Grizzly thank you so much. This makes a lot of things clear. First, that a woman needs to “bond” to a man in a context outside of sex if she wants to be seen as an actual person and not as an object that provides sexual release. As much as some women may like sex, it’s important to know that men don’t connect sex and emotions as women do so make sure you are connected in more ways than carnal.

        I am not sure the pastry analogy works best because very refined sugar is more addictive than the (relative) low sugar levels of strudel. If you are into sugar you may select the sweetest, not the “best”. And in the end we are discussing people. Not an inanimate object. I get your point loud and clear though.

        Grizzly I do appreciate what you wrote, a lot, but I gather you are able to grasp that you don’t see women as people but objects and that from the tone of your letter you sound exactly like the type of man most women who are looking for relationships seek to avoid.

        When you wrote “caring” is important – “we care about sex in-and-of-iself a lot”, that confirmed that women need to be very on point about connecting with a man in other ways than sex because the last thing women want is to feel like a nameless receptacle.

        What you describe is essentially what most women seek to avoid. Women do like sex a lot but we love relationships as men well know. This explains that sex alone will essentially NEVER connect two people to anything deeper from the perspective of men. Because for women “chemistry” is a very big one and it is not a big one for men. They can still sleep with women if there is low chemistry but high likelihood of sex. why “oh but we had such great chemistry” is meaningless to men. Nope, he just needed to “get his rocks off”.

        • Howard Says:

          It works both ways. I am not sure, one gender has the lock on not seeing a person as a total person. I have dated enough to see the continual self-centered conversation coming from the female side.

          A quick purview of female online profiles, one sees a number of hoops for men to jump. Women are just as stuck on physicality as men. The pervasive height requirement among other non-negotiables, clearly show that. Then there is this thing about income and perceived success. That is something most men don’t worry too much about, however women constantly harp on that, in spite of significant strides in equal opportunities.

          And it doesn’t matter if a woman needs no financial assistance from a man. In fact my more financially successful female friends are even more demanding of a man paying for things than less successful women. At the very least, the only men they consider worthy enough, are those with at least the same education, professional success and income as them.

          Lots of women continue to insist guys spend endlessly on dates. I could keep going to further demonstrate the self-centered attitudes out there, but let’s stop there and also acknowledge that men do self-centered too. I however find that men do it mostly about sex only. They do use every trick in the book to convince women to have sex with them, but women also have their bag of tricks. It was always ludicrous to me, about women who kept insisting, that they don’t need a man to pay their bills. I always found out later, that it was all a big act, as they were barely hanging on financially. Let’s not even talk about the fake hair, nails, breasts etc.

          In terms of desired objectives, no gender holds the higher ground. Lots of men only want sex. But lots of women have gotten married to men, just to say the got married.

          Regarding Grizzly’s strudel analogy, it’s not that hard to come up with a female equivalent. We have all heard about the mother telling the daughter, that’s it’s even easier to fall in love with a rich guy, than a poor guy. We all have preferences, both men and women. And we all play games regarding second and third choices. Most people do indeed end up with anything but their first choice.

          Thankfully, our concept of second and third choices are often no more than an illusion, created by our internalized nonsense. And that’s the saving grace for most relationships, as the things, that really matter, start to unfold.

          • mindstar Says:

            “In fact my more financially successful female friends are even more demanding of a man paying for things than less successful women.” Very true Howard. Many years ago I dated a woman who made about 3x what I did. We went out virtually every weekend. She picked up the tab ONCE! And that was for lunch. You can tolerate behavior like that only so long.

          • Eliza Says:

            Wow–in reading:
            “It was always ludicrous to me, about women who kept insisting, that they don’t need a man to pay their bills. I always found out later, that it was all a big act, as they were barely hanging on financially. Let’s not even talk about the fake hair, nails, breasts etc.”

            Where were you meeting these women?!!! Poor choice in women. Yes? fake everything. As they say, be careful what you wish for–you just may get it.

            As I firmly believe…”time reveals all”–I don’t go by what I hear/read on these profiles. Don’t tell me…eventually you WILL show me who you are and vice versa.

        • rugbychix Says:

          People don’t like what Grizzly has to say because they are true and not PC. No matter what the world is telling you, sexual attraction for men is visual. It’s not “fair” and yes it makes the optimal shelf life for woman in the sexual market much shorter than men’s. You can either accept that or smash your head in the brick wall that is a never ending, “where all the great guys?” The answer is, having sex with hotter, younger women or having relationships with women who are a hotter/younger plus have some semblance of sanity.

          There is an almost 100% likelihood that the OP has something physically less than attractive about her. I I will play the odds, given the levels obesity in English speaking countries, that she is over weight. If she has something else unfortunate about her appearance that is not controllable, then she will need to change her standards drastically. It is what it is. It’s like a ref making crappy calls in a sports event, you can cry all you want but it won’t change the ref’s mind.

          A huge percentage of men feel the way that Grizzly does. I am sure there are those whose sexual/emotional/relationship access leans more to typically female approach but they are the exception. If you think you will find such a special snowflake that is also up to your “standards,” keep doing that. Just don’t be shocked when you don’t find anything.

          • Eliza Says:

            I agree rugby: No matter what the world is telling you, sexual attraction for men is visual.
            Keep in mind…that that very door/concept swings BOTH ways.

            Women are visual too–hence, the height “preference”–not requirement necessarily. But yes, don’t complain about not being blessed with that tall gene…and oh, why oh why must women expect a man to be tall. Hey, it’s what is visually more pleasing to females…deal!
            As women have/should deal with men being visual.
            Human beings (women and men) are BOTH quite visual.
            Do you actually think women are more accepting of having sexual relations with an obese man?! Especially if that woman is into fitness and taking super care of herself. Not!

          • Howard Says:

            No way to respond to Eliza below, but here gos. There is always a way to tip the balance more in your favor, even for guys who are short. It may mean getting more confident or wealthier or more educated or good at some sport or activity or a whole lot of things.

            The same holds true for women. It may mean losing weight, a makeover, better wardrobe, a boob job, some liposuction, becoming popular or a whole lot of other things too.

            The key is to start working on those things, no matter how much we hate hearing about it. Bitching about the vicissitudes of life changes nothing. We come back year to year with the same problems from the same people, who refuse serious change.

        • C Says:

          I dont know if your comment about chemistry is true. Guys seem to think chemistry and “connection” is important too but guys (at least the guys I’ve talked to) seem to define it differently. I briefly dated a guy who talked about casual encounters and described it this way: “The connections were real, they were just brief”. It seemed like when guys talked about “connection” or “chemistry”, they were talking about the quality of the sexual encounter. Seems like when women talk about “connection” they mean repore or emotional bond, and “chemistry” refers to physical attraction. I might be wrong but that was my impression.

      • C Says:

        Haha. Great analogy, Grizzly. In that case women must be the person with a pastry craving who has a ton of food allergies. Sure she is craving those sweets, but gee if it isnt gluten free, and sweetend with organic cane sugar and using non-hormone butter, well, she’d rather not eat it and avoid getting sick.

    • mindstar Says:

      That this is news to women is amazing. Very simple – women need attraction to have sex, men need sex to feel attraction.

      It is from this simple fact that so many dating problems arise. Women waiting too long to have sex, men not wanting to invest before having sex, men (and sometimes women) pulling “the Fade” after sex. Women engaging in FWB because they think it will lead to a LTR (possible but damn unlikely). “Nice Guys” jumping through hoops for women who don’t find them attractive.

      • msM. Says:

        actually mindstar:

        “Very simple – women need attraction to have sex, men need sex to feel attraction.”

        What I am getting is that men DON’T need sex to feel attraction, they can f**k anyone. Attraction or not. They will go for the hottest one first but someone who is passingly attractive and willing to put out will do.

        From all of the above it seems that if a man is dating anyone, sex is very important to him, BUT sex is not the means of bonding, at least initially? Since there is little connection between emotion and sex for men, the only way a woman can tell if a man is after her because of who she is as a person is OUTSIDE of the bedroom. How he treats her when he is NOT after sex.

        I have to clarify that I am speaking of the period between meeting someone and entering into an exclusive relationship. Most women want to determine long-term relationship potential – not sex potential – thus my interest.

        • msM. Says:

          Eliza I disagree about women being visual. Be honest would you rather date a ‘gorgeous” wannabe model/actor/waiter or a very successful, average looking very smart businessman? Men would answer model/actress all the way. I would take the second option anytime. To men looks are just SO much more important than other factors. There are millions of articles about how high value men don’t care about women in positions of power, they’d rather go out with the hot and nice school teacher over the demanding and less attractive law partner.

          • Lisa Says:

            For me, the physical attraction has to be there. First and foremost. If it is, then we can talk. But if I’m not wowed by what I see, there will be no opportunity for me to get to know that he is smart and a business man, etc.

            That’s not to say I couldn’t be attracted to an “average looking” man. Case by case basis.

            I am a woman and I am very visual.

            Aside from his looks, how he makes me feel is huge and can be the deciding factor in whether or there’s a second date.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          ““Very simple – women need attraction to have sex, men need sex to feel attraction.””

          I don’t know where that idea comes from, unless we’re talking about a type of attraction other than physical. Physical attraction comes before sex. What sex opens up is a man’s interest in whether there is anything MORE to that woman–and there may not be.

          “BUT sex is not the means of bonding, at least initially?”

          Nope. Satisfying our need for sex is no different from satisfying our need for water, food, sleep, etc. I don’t “bond” with the pizza delivery person.

          “the only way a woman can tell if a man is after her because of who she is as a person is OUTSIDE of the bedroom. How he treats her when he is NOT after sex.”

          What you’re missing here is that if he didn’t find you attractive (and therefore someone to have sex with), he wouldn’t have asked you out. The real issue is figuring out whether a guy wants you for just sex or for sex AND maybe a relationship–and we’re pretty good at faking the latter when necessary.

      • Lisa Says:

        “Very simple – women need attraction to have sex, men need sex to feel attraction.”

        The way I heard it is that men need sex to fall in love but women need love to want to have sex.

        Is that not more accurate (from the POV of men)?

        Bc I think it’s pretty say to say plenty of me and attracted to plenty of women who they have not had and will never have sex with.

    • Eliza Says:

      Never mind – a man not “valuing” a woman…but to have sex with a woman that is downright UGLY?! Just to get one’s rocks off? get in, get off and get out?! What do men do in situations like that–close their eyes…look away…they must have some strong visual imagery going on…if they are not somewhat “attracted” to her face, yet find her body acceptable enough to do the horizontal mambo! (as I heard some men put it).

      • mindstar Says:

        Eliza NEVER understimate the effect of beer/whiskey/tequila googles or the truism found in that old country western song “All the Girls Get Prettier at Closing Time”

        • Eliza Says:

          Got it–we all know about the “witching hour”…closing time…and by then, the men left standing, or actually barely standing by the barstools will have beer/liquor goggles and not have much insight, or visual capability to be discerning of the leftover options! Sheesh. That’s why it’s best to leave before the witch hunt commences! lol. When one needs to turn to alcohol to get horizontal…that’s pretty bad.

      • Rosenkrantz Says:

        Men think about other women. Or men focus on a body part. men break women down into zones. So, if a woman is ugly but has absolutely beautiful breasts, the man will obsess about her breasts.

        The truth is that men love women’s bodies. Men are obsessed with women’s bodies. The only thing that alters this is fat, because it blurs the body. Fat is like blurry film or low definition video. On a flats stomach a female belly button is gorgeous. Just a navel. But if it’s not all bunched up with pudge, it’s beautiful.

        The first thing to consider is the degree to which men are obsessed with women’s bodies, and by “bodies”, I mean the healthy, athletic bodies of the girls they knew in eighth grade, which is when boys start to want girls seriously.

        • HammersAndNails Says:

          Wtf man? 13 year old kids? If that’s your female ideal you need help.

          • Rosenkrantz Says:

            13 was my female ideal when I was 13, which is exactly what I implied in my comment. My point is that the body type that men like tends to be set during adolescence. 20 years ago, 90% of adolescents were thin.

            Your reading of my comment is your own perversion. I’m 41 and rarely look at women under about 26 or 27. Women who are 23 look like kids to me. I tend to be more attracted to women about 32 or 33.

            My comments are informed by the fact that I’m over forty and have seen the world go from thin to obese in 20 years, 20 years ago the world was so much thinner than it is now that it seems like we have switched planets. When I invoke high school, I am invoking a period in history when all the women in the country seemed to weigh much less.

          • Crotch Rocket Says:

            “13 year old kids? If that’s your female ideal you need help.”

            It’s about body type, not age. A man’s preference is set by the type of women he is surrounded with when he hits puberty. He will date older gals as he gets older himself (if only because that’s all that’s interested in him–or legal for him to date), but he’ll still want the same general body type.

            For instance, I grew up near the gym of a world-famous Olympic gymnastics coach. My HS was flooded with girls whose families had moved there hoping they’d make (or who had already made) the US Olympic team. So, it’s no surprise that I prefer women who are thin, toned and small-breasted.

            In contrast, my sister’s husband went to a HS where obesity was the norm, and he loves how my sister looks. He even rants about how I only date “stick figures” and how I need someone with “meat on her bones”. To each their own.

      • Crotch Rocket Says:

        “if they are not somewhat “attracted” to her face, yet find her body acceptable enough to do the horizontal mambo! (as I heard some men put it).”

        A good body is enough; there has to be SOME part of her that I find attractive and can focus on. Heck, a bad face is the easiest to deal with; just do it doggie or reverse cowgirl, or turn the lights off! The problem with fat chicks is that they’re fat everywhere; it can’t be ignored.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “We women are SO self-conscious about specific body parts (thighs, etc..) and yet to you guys, that doesn’t matter???”

      It does matter, but men focus on the parts of a woman that we like whereas women focus on the parts of themselves (and each other) that they don’t like.

      “How could sex be important to you if you don’t value the other person”

      That’s like asking how food can be important to us if we don’t value the waiter that delivers it. The question makes no sense.

      • msM. Says:

        no crotchet, the question is on point and your provided the analogy that describes it to how you see it. The question was:

        “How could sex be important to you if you don’t value the other person”

        You answered:

        “That’s like asking how food can be important to us if we don’t value the waiter that delivers it.”

        You are saying that women are like waitresses whose role is only to deliver sex at your table and leave when no longer needed. Women, according to your answer are servants, literally a means to an end.

        You don’t agree with my statement because you have not considered sex to be something that you share WITH someone, rather, as a separate experience where women are providers and nothing more.

        This conversation on this thread is very interesting because it illuminates why women should be MORE selective, not less, and see sex the way men see it, so as to be very aware and only sleep with men who see you as full person, not as a pleasure waitress or sex receptacle.

        • Crotch Rocket Says:

          “You are saying that women are like waitresses whose role is only to deliver sex at your table and leave when no longer needed.”

          No, I said the question makes no sense, just like yours made no sense, because sex is basic need to be satisfied regardless of the value we do (or do not) place on the other person. They are simply unrelated.

          • msM. Says:

            That is where men and women differ wildly. I can’t imagine separating sex and emotions. I am unable to have sex without some degree of emotional involvement, it is not like eating to me, not at all:)

  12. Steve From The City Next Door Says:

    If I read it correctly she is in England. I suppose things might be different in there.

    It seems like there is a lot of speculation going on here. Really, I don’t think we can know without some more information. It is probably something visual as it sounds like guys aren’t approaching…but that could any of many things. Just butt ugly, extremely over-weight, constant scowl, scar across her face from that knife fight…who knows?

  13. Mark Says:

    “My problem is I never seem to get hit on when I go out.”
    -Playfull Kitten

    What follows can be applied to men or women, no matter what demographic you happen to fall in.

    If you are doing something and not getting desired results then re assess things. That includes yourself (you may not be as attractive as you believe) or you are shooting for a target market that is unlikely to be interested in you.

    Sorry to be blunt about it. But almost no success means there is a serious disconnect. All you have to do is skim over any number of blogs, advice columns and what not (including this one) to get a general picture of the landscape.

    If you are attractive or otherwise appealing, you will get the initial looks. That’s a fact. This applies to men and women across the board. No matter what the setting. That’s the ‘attraction” part of the process.

    Having something to offer beyond that initial attraction keeps someone interested in you. That’s the ‘chemistry’ side of things.

    Having somethings to offer after you make the first two hurdles is the compatibility phase. This is up to you and the prospective other.

    Each has it’s own challenges and there is no stock formula that you can give you your desired results. Nor are there any guarantees about anything else…. Ever. The best you can do is make good with what you have and play your cards right.

    So back to the original letter. If you are finding that you aren’t not even getting hit on then take a moment to reconsider the package and how you are coming across to your prospective audience. If you are not even getting decent results at that hurdle, then rethink things very carefully.

    Again, sorry to be so blunt, but sometimes this sort of thing is called for.

    In any event, hope things improve and you find success in your endeavors.

  14. Rosenkrantz Says:

    There may be SOME truth to the idea that men are afraid to approach some women. I think online dating has had a very negative effect on the self-esteem of most men. I am 5′ 9″ and never felt that short in my life, but online, I am considered a midget. Also, I am 41 and have routinely dated women 7 to 8 years younger than I am, but online, most women want men who are no more than 3 or 4 years older (and even women who are 36 seem to have 39 as a cut off for men). Therefore, after some time online, I always worry that I am neither tall enough nor younger enough to talk to women. I have seen SO many profiles in which women who are 5′ 5″ and 36 say stuff like “NO men over 40″ and “no men under 6 feet”, that I’ve decided that I am sort of worthless. When women start to chat me up (and they do with some frequency), I am a little shocked. Five years ago, I was not shocked. Now I am.

    Online dating is creating a generation of men who have very low self-esteem (and a handful of guys over six feet tall who think they rule the universe).

    So, in THIS era, it’s plausible that men are shy to approach in a way they were not ten years ago.

    • Eliza Says:

      RKrantz–stop that already! Whining about height. Confidence = sexiness. If you are going to view yourself as “short-ended” (no pun intended) – you are going to come up short on deliverance. Also, there will ALWAYS be negative profiles – from both men and women…all that is required there is the “delete key”…next. Nothing to be shocked about. When you are basically “shopping online” – because that’s what we are virtually doing when going through profiles online…we can be quite dismissive–based on what we don’t even see…just read. Deal with it. If you are man “afraid” to approach a woman that catches your eye/interest–work on your confidence. Or be fine with just “watching the parade go by”…and sit by the sidelines. And yes, a man that is 5’9 IS short in comparison to someone that is 6’4. Who cares…you need to work with what you have, and LOVE who you are! Online dating is not creating ANYTHING, people who lack self-esteem need to work on that if they want to date period.

      • Rosenkrantz Says:

        I have tons of self-esteem. I have been a paid model. That has absolutely nothing to do with online dating, Confidence doesn’t come across on the internet.

        If I deleted every woman who mentioned height, I would delete almost every woman I find attractive. It’s not random. In my experience, there seems to be a very clear relationship between a woman’s level of attractiveness and her concern about height. I am not surprised by this. I am not expressing surprise or judgment. I am commenting on a phenomenon I witness. Its simple: The hottest girls tend to demand that guys be tall. I want one of the hottest girls. I cannot get hot girls online. I can sometimes get hot girls offline. Therefore, I do not do online dating anymore.

        Almost every time (online) that I see a girl who makes me say “holyfuckinggodshe’shot” or just suck air through my teeth and then growl, she has a height requirement. It’s very predictable. it’s not something I plan to have happen.

        I do like who I am. Also, like I said, women do approach me. So, women like who I am too (evidently). I am ripped, immensely educated, and successful. But online dating can be demoralizing even for the most confident men. I think you don’t have much experience hearing men talk about their bad experiences with online dating. Almost all the articles on this blog are from women talking about male behavior. If there were an article about men getting rejected online, there’d be hundreds of posts from men about how bad online dating is for them.

        For the record, men don’t care if women have confidence. It’s absolutely irrelevant to men (but that’s off topic).

        As far as 5′ 9″ being short compared with 6′ 4″, yes but only 4% of the men on the planet are 6′ 4″ or taller. Women seem to think 25% of the men on the planet are that tall. It’s only 4%. Maybe 25% of the men on the Bachelorette are 6′ 4″. But that’s not representational.

        Eliza, my advice to you is to stop lecturing me and go spend an hour reading women’s dating profiles. Many women are so demanding it’d blow your mind.

        • ATWYSingle Says:

          Oh for fuck’s sake, Avery. We know it’s you.

        • LostSailor Says:

          For the record, men don’t care if women have confidence. It’s absolutely irrelevant to men (but that’s off topic).

          Speak for only yourself, dude.

          Most men I know, myself included, absolutely do care if a women is confident.

          Women who are not confident tend to be either shy, poor conversationalists, having to be constantly drawn out or aggressively overcompensating by being “strong and independent,” both of which are generally not attractive traits.

          True confidence doesn’t have to advertise itself and it doesn’t come from outside validation or attention. It’s not feigned indifference, either. You make the mistake of assuming that attention breeds confidence when it’s the opposite: confidence breeds attention. It is, indeed, “inner grace.”

          But, I’m not surprised you don’t understand that as you seem to have little inner grace or genuine confidence. Instead you demonstrate by bragging about your “ripped” body, “immense” education and financial “success” that to address your height-challenge issues you have only overcompensation and bravado.

          Bravado is not confidence.

          Hence your false statement that men don’t care about a woman’s confidence; you don’t care for confident women because, I suspect, you know that a woman with genuine confidence will see through the bullshit in a heartbeat…

      • Rosenkrantz Says:

        the problem with confidence is where it comes from. most confident men are confident because girls give them positive attention. most men who are NOT confident are not confident because women give them no attention.

        Therefore, saying “i like confident guys” is tantamount to saying “i like guys who get laid a lot.”

        I think women want to believe that confidence is a sort of inner grace that effervesces like reservoir of natural heroism within a man sans any connection with external approbation. it’s not. it’s like chicks dig me so how YOU doin?.

        HOWEVER! indifference can be sculpted to look like confidence. Or, I should say, FEIGNED indifference. Similarly, total despair can be coiffed to resemble confidence. Cary Grant often seemed indifferent (esp. in Charade).

        In Notting Hill, Hugh Grant is anything but c-confident, b-but he was adorable, so we’ll give him a p-pass.

        so, players tend to be confident, which is just asking for trouble, because players are players.

  15. NB Says:

    Oh hi again Avery! If you’re ripped, educated, ‘immensely successful’ and girls like you, then why do you need a dating site?

  16. LostSailor Says:

    Late to this one, but there’s really not enough information in the OP to make any real conclusions: the rest is just speculation.

    That Playful Kitten has a problem is obvious. And it’s not the guys, mostly. That she can’t draw attention when she’s purportedly giving out attraction cues is one thing. The more important is that she can’t seem to get any man to tolerate her company for more than the hour it takes them to bust a nut and GTFO. Given all this, that she adopts the handle “playful kitten” seems to indicate that she doesn’t really think the problem is with her and doesn’t have the introspection or self-honesty to evaluate what the issue is. It certainly isn’t that men are “scared” to approach her, that’s just an easy-out smoke-screen.

    The answer isn’t for “kitten” to be more proactive and aggressive in approaching men, it’s stopping to figure out what the real issue is, because if she doesn’t do that, no amount of taking the initiative is going to help. In fact, it will likely only increase the frustration.

    One important facet of the problem may be that she simply doesn’t know what’s turning men off (aside from the guys that can put up with it to get a quick lay) and she doesn’t have any friends close enough or with the courage to recognize the issue and tell her. Even if she has those people in her life, she may be so unwilling to confront a flaw that she wouldn’t listen anyway. Who knows? Again, not enough information.

    A couple of years ago, I had a date with a woman met online. She was generally attractive, well-dressed, conversational, and easy to talk to. Sounds promising, right? My issue was she had appallingly bad breath. As in across a space of no more than a couple of feet away, I got the distinct impression that some small woodland animal had crawled in her mouth and died. She seemed oblivious. Now, maybe it was just me being over-sensitive. Maybe she had small woodland creature for lunch and didn’t have time to brush. But there was no second date.

    PK knows there’s a problem, but she appears to think it’s either something she’s doing or something about the men rather than something about her. We’re all often reluctant to confront our flaws. Some can be changed but we don’t want to acknowledge that change takes effort. And some can’t be changed.

    But unless we honestly confront them and come up with a plan to deal with what can be dealt with, we’re left with self-deception and frustration. Which is no way to live…

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