Some Men Will Never Date Me Because Of My Body And I’m Okay With That

A few months ago I set up a date with someone from OKCupid. Plans were made, the date and location decided. A couple bodyquotedays before we were to meet, he emailed me asking if I had any recent pictures. Anybody who employs the use of an online dating site knows this is not a good sign.

I replied and informed him that the seven photos on my profile were less than a year old and had date stamps. Additionally, I said, I was one of the few women he was going to meet on OKCupid who didn’t care about who paid for what on a date and had reasonable expectations. [Side note: I’m comparing myself to other women with this line.  I got called out for it when the piece was originally posted, and it took me quite some time before I realized the critics were right to call me on it.]

Photo at Right Credit

“I’m the typical OK Cupid guy’s wet dream” I said. “Your call if you still want to meet.”

He replied and apologized profusely. He reassured me that he still wished to meet and explained that he was new to the site and had a couple of dates with women who looked nothing like their photos.

I refused to further audition for this stranger. I also had no desire to deal with someone who was so suspicious of the online dating process. Either you’re in or you’re out, brah. Take the risk or step aside.

“Understood,” I said. “But that’s not me.”

The day of the date, he canceled citing work issues, something I had predicted would happen. He followed up a couple days later offering further details about his crazy busy job. He wanted to know if I still wanted to meet. Nope. Besides the obvious safety precautions involved with online dating, I think there’s one other major concern. What I believe we’re truly trying to avoid is sitting across from someone we consider unfit and wondering if this is the best we can do. I was not going to put myself in the position to feel like I was under his microscope.

Accepting that I was not going to be every man’s cup of tea was quite liberating. It’s too bad I didn’t have that sense of inner peace five years earlier. I can remember the moment as if it just happened yesterday. Brian was trying to worm his way up to my apartment after a date. Knowing that he was out of my league, I couldn’t keep my internal dialogue to myself. I asked him if he didn’t mind that I wasn’t skinny.

“You’re fun size,” he said.

Then there was the personal trainer I met on Nerve. He said we wouldn’t be seeing each other again because “he wasn’t used to dating women my size.” To drive the point home, he tacked on that I shouldn’t select “fit” as my body type.  With all of this feedback jangling around in my head, I went into a lot of dates with apprehension.

I dreaded seeing that look that I had learn to identify as disappointment. Causing even more anxiety was the thought of showing up at a designated meeting spot and being stood up. It had happened to me only once but that was enough. I recall standing at the door of the bar waiting for my date to arrive. Ten minutes passed, then 20. An hour later, after crying to myself in the back of a cab, I came home to an email from him.

“Sorry. Not for me.”

meshoot8

When my nurse weighed me during a routine physical and told me I was up to 190 pounds, I knew I needed to make a change. Numbers don’t lie. I had gained a significant amount of weight. Admittedly, a motivating factor in my decision to diet was so that I would have more dating success. While I achieved that one goal by going from a size 14 to a size 10, it wasn’t long before I realized that, regardless of how much I lost, it was never going to be enough for some people.

I don’t begrudge any man for preferring to date thin women. It’s the men who refuse to date anything other than slender women that bug me. They aren’t judging me by my character or personality. They are judging me based on a size on a label. They see that first.

I don’t think a person is shallow for preferring to date someone slim or with all their hair or who is taller than five foot nine. We like what we like. It’s an unwillingness to see the person beyond the body parts that has now become unacceptable to me.

I come from hearty Sicilian stock. I am broad. I am solid. I like how pronounced my calves are when I wear stilettos. I like how my ass and legs look in my yoga pants. When I go out for my daily power walks or am at the gym, I get a satisfaction from knowing how strong and capable I am. I feel formidable in my body. I also enjoy hearing a guy say things to me like, “I love how firm your legs are” as he cups my ass cheeks when I ride him. There’s something powerful about my build that gives me confidence.

If a man answers the OKCupid question as to whether or not it would bother him if their date was overweight by choosing the option, “Yes, even if they were a little bit overweight,” I move along. I am not for them and they are not for me. I refuse to agonize over this as though it were a missed opportunity. I know that a lot of guys pass by my profile strictly because of my body. I would be lying if I said that there weren’t moments when that bothered me. I know that they are comparing me to all the other options on that site. So be it.

That’s one of the benefits of dating at my age. Like Danny Glover in “Lethal Weapon,” you just get to a point where you’re too old for this shit. You no longer devote any mental bandwidth to worrying if you’re not good enough. You’ve lived with yourself for so long and gotten through so much that you realize — on your own — that you are.

xojanescaleisdevilleg

The number on the scale says 174. The leg says numbers don’t matter.

Originally posted on xoJane

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119 Responses to “Some Men Will Never Date Me Because Of My Body And I’m Okay With That”

  1. Eliza Says:

    I can relate to this post in many ways. I am in my mid 40’s. When I was much younger I would agonize over every little things in my life, and at one point, was trying to reach what in my twisted mind was “perfection”…the perfect job, home ownership, the perfect body — and for me that meant a size 2 and 5’4 – which is very thin. There were times where I came close to a size 0, and for all the wrong reasons, and had to reflect as to why I am putting myself mentally and physically through this pain, of dieting and overexercising–and just to gain acceptance from ohter–the opposite gender and for what? For there to be men who will find yet something else wrong. This type of mentality leads and has lead some young girls into life threatening eating disorders. There will always be someone out there that is judgmental on how we look, and I have said it before: dating is a very shallow process – especially initially. Some men (who are overweight by the way) – are so quick to judge a woman when she gains a mere 5 lbs. Sometimes, these people are like this–because they feel crappy about themselves. Misery loves company…And this superficiality is only magnified with dating online–where people are basically shopping based on photos…that’s all we have to go on. We don’t get any sense of their personality, aura or energy via a profile…but that’s how limiting online dating can be. I now have an inner peace about who I am, where I am career wise, and am content – with all my accocmplishment AND failures…it’s what makes me ME…and those who support and appreciate me and find it appealing will be the right people who are a valuable part of my life. By the way–it’s equally frustrating to be on a date with man that ONLY zeros in on and focuses on the “exterior”…basically if conversation is not there, and he could care less what I have to say, my interests, aspirations and so forth…then his interest is purely based on the physical alone…who needs that?

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  2. A to the F Says:

    Yeah, 174 lbs and a size 10 are not what I’d call fit, unless you’re saying you can run a half marathon. That’s false advertising, and self-delusion.

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    • ATWYSingle Says:

      But nobody cares what you consider fit. That’s the point. Fit is subjective. Someone could be 180 pounds and look 150 depending on their muscle mass and weight distribution. You’re basing “fit” on numbers strictly because you’re 5’5″ and pissed off.

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      • Avery_t Says:

        Fitness is NOT subjective. Public schools used to have fitness requirements (like 40 sit ups in a minute). The FBI and the Marines have fitness guidelines, like 40 pus-ups and 2 mile run in under 16 minutes (for men). So, many organizations (such as schools and the FBI) have clear definitions for the term “fit.” All the military branches do too. Probably the same for all law enforcement agencies and for the Fire Dept.

        I have no idea what (be 180 and look 150″ actually means. men have NO Idea how much Eva Longoria weighs. Men have no idea how much 1980’s Madonna weighed. They MAY have a guess at their waist size and body fat %. Men think in terms of waist size and body fat%. Stuff like dress size and BMI are irrelevant to men’s appreciation of women’s bodies. It’s pretty much about waist size.

        “Fit” is a useless term.

        I can do 7 miles in 51 minutes on the treadmill, and I consider myself fit. But I did not consider myself fit when I could run only 5 miles in 40 minutes. But I hold myself to professional standards.

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      • A to the F Says:

        Haha. You’re funny. I knew you’d lash out the way you did. Too predictable. I’m 5’10” and I weigh 180. If you, as a woman, approach my weight, even if you’re tall, you are not fit. You are, in fact, fat. Even if you weigh 25 lbs less, you are not fit; you are fat.

        Fit is not subjective. Can you even walk up stairs without having to catch your breath? Doubt it.

        And clearly you care, otherwise you wouldn’t have engaged in ignorant ad hominems.

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          I confused your comment with AP’S comment. My mistake. I thought you said you were 5’5″. And, yes, short guys typically do have more biases and resentments because they’re often dismissed for their height. They build up prejudices strictly because they’re bitter about not being tall enough.

          My fitness level? Who cares? I work out regularly, I maintain my target heart rate for 30-40 minutes, I don’t have knee or joint issues other than when it rains. That’s really all that matters to me

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          • POV Says:

            Right. He’s “bitter” for not being tall enough. Something he has zero control over but nonetheless even a plurality of women under 5′ 5″ would exclude him.

            But you’re not bitter for not being a size 4. No siree. Just why does those men you want not want you? They must be arseholes.

            Cluephone: Most men will date a Size 10. Including me. Problem is you don’t want them.

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      • Jesse Says:

        I can run a 1/2 marathon fast enough to most anyone (98 minutes) Yet my BMI is 28, which equates to me being obese.

        Fitness and weight don’t necessarily correlate

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        • Jesse Says:

          beat most anyone ….

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        • mindstar Says:

          “Fitness and weight don’t necessarily correlate” true but generally it is the way to bet

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        • Katherine Natasha Says:

          Arnold Schwarzenegger and John Goodman could have the same BMI and yet you are willing to ignore that one is considered heavy because of muscle and the other because of fat for a feel-good argument about what fit means. Let us get to the meat of the matter: is the woman physically fit or not? She loves her thick Italian legs, but can those legs carry her without losing breath? And since the date that specifically pointed this out was an athletic person, can we really pretend that he wasn’t speaking about how engaged she is in fitness and athleticism?

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    • PGH Gal Says:

      That is your opinion, but I would be VERY willing to bet that you are attracted to women right now who are a size 10 or 12 (and there are plenty of 2s and 4s who are not fit at all).

      Moxie was bold enough to admit her weight and leave it to a typical internet troll to take advantage of that and insult her. Ridiculous.

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      • Avery_t Says:

        I googled size 10. I was shown Leonia Lewis (sp? ) and Chsritina Hendricks. I would not sleep with either. Both have very pretty faces, but their bodies turn me off. So, I DID look. If you had made a bet with me, you would have lost. That’s all I’m saying.

        I was VERY attracted to Emily Blunt in The Adjustment Bureau. She plays a dancer and trained for it.

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          I’m sure Emily Blunt is SO RELIEVED that you’d sleep with her and that Christina Hendricks is CRUSHED.

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          • ATWYSingle Says:

            And seriously, dude? You state in your profile that you’re 5’9″ and you’re 5’7″.

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            • Dark Sarcasm Says:

              So it’s okay for women to flub age & weight a bit in their online profile as you’ve previously advocated (“to come up in more searches”) but you have a snit when men flub their height a bit?

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              • ATWYSingle Says:

                I don’t give a shit if men fudge their height.I have a problem with someone saying “you don’t to call yourself fit” when they easily justify misrepresenting themselves in their profile. I happen to believe I’m fit. I’m not lying. Nobody can tell me I’m not other than a doctor. But I don’t get to say I weigh 120 pounds in my profile and then condemn people because they don’t fit my idea of what is fit.

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        • PGHGal Says:

          2 women are not a representation of every size 10 on earth. Your view is really that myopic? The world does not revolve around celebrities. Oops! I forgot that, for you, it does.

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      • A to the F Says:

        That’s why I questioned her actual fitness level. Instead of defending her opinion that she was fit, she tried to insult me. That shows she knew who claim of being fit was a lie.

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      • Eliza Says:

        Yes, dress size is not necessarily a good indicator of cardiovascular fitness. And one can be a size 10, and petite, like 5’0-5’4…on a shorter frame – then that person would appear heavier than a woman that is 5’10 and a size 10…and also some people are more proportionate than others. Some people are apple shaped and others pears…and some of us have a more balanced shape on top and bottom, making them appear lighter. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder…for some men, a more curvier woman is more appealing, and for others, they prefer the waif-look. At the end of the day, each of us are perfectly imperfect. And with age, metabolism varies…usually slows down, so there are things one can’t avoid…thyroid issues as well. As long as you are healthy and accept yourself…who cares what other think, or if there is a percentage of men who will judge and exclude you…you can’t allow how other think to govern how you feel. But yes, society has always instilled the importance of being thin to women to a point where these young girls are endangering their health to attain an unrealistic body when clearly they are not meant to be so thin.

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        • A Guy Says:

          Eliza says:

          “for some men, a more curvier woman is more appealing, and for others, they prefer the waif-look.”

          Curvy, yes. Selma Hayek is an example of TRUE CURVY. In self delusion fat women have taken that word over. “Curvy”, especially online, is now synonymous with fat or obese. True curvy women should be pissed and take that word back. Round is not a curve.

          Waif’s, no. Don’t know too many guys who prefer 5’10” 105 lb walking skeletons. Cloths designed by gay men who’s runway models more resemble little boys than women, makes sense.

          Eliza says:

          “And with age, metabolism varies…usually slows down, so there are things one can’t avoid…thyroid issues as well.”

          Yes metabolism changes slightly with age, but not as much as people think. It’s usually poor diet and less physical activity with older age why people get fat. Thyroid problems encompass all of 2% of overweight people, my mother being one. Metabolism and thyroid problems, the go to excuses of fatties.

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          • C Says:

            Sorry The Guy, but you are starting to sound fat obsessed. If men didnt enjoy girls bigger then Selma Hayek, men wouldnt fetishize big girls and the BBW porn category wouldnt exist. Just because you dont like big girls doesnt mean everyone feels the same.

            And some of us girls would rather be with a guy who is a little overweight then a guy who is a little underweight or “too lean”. There are all sorts of preferences.

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            • ATWYSingle Says:

              He’s a troll. Could you please stop feeding him?

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              • A Guy Says:

                No not a troll, am a new commenter though. If I was trolling I would have just made some spinsterhood or cat jokes.

                Still stand by my remarks though, and judging by comments from a lot of your regulars it looks like they tend to agree, sorry but this post does reek of bitterness.

                Unlike weight, height is completely out of anyone’s control which both men and women have noted here. Your go to comment about men’s height is a low blow. It just shows you are trying to project your insecurities onto others by making them insecure. I would think a woman of 47 would have laid that to rest a long time ago.

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                • Katherine Natasha Says:

                  Guy, I too am confused as to how curvy came to mean “over 35% body fat”. I have to search to find boards where curvy women can include fit, athletic women.

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            • A Guy Says:

              I never said no man wants a women bigger than her. Just using an example of true curvy, unlike dating sites “curvy”. Men have all kinds of tastes, same for women, which is a good thing.

              Hardly fat obsessed, but I see your point, you’re right. Like I said in another post my mother is overweight due to a thyroid condition which went untreated for decades. I’m sure the use of the word fatties would displease her. Sensitivity isn’t my strong suit, blunt and to the point is more my nature.

              Just hate when I hear overweight people use the thyroid excuse when it is only 2% of cases. I’ve seen the effects first hand and have to get checked regularly myself since it runs in the family. As the saying goes, you are what you eat. Put garbage on the inside you get garbage on the outside.

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    • notafranny Says:

      Good grief, you must be joking. I am 172# and wear a size 10…..and I’m 5’11”. So if I told you my size and weight you would declare me unfit? nice…….are you really that unaware?

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    • C Says:

      I dont see the big deal. If some guys only want to date a size 0, to hell with them?!

      I wouldnt date a man who was shorter then me.

      I know for a fact that I’ve been rejected by men because I’m “too tall”, because my boobs are “too small”, because I’m “Slavic looking”, etc… I dont know why I should begrudge those men for their inflexibility when theres an entire other population of men who prefer me for those exact same arbitrary characteristics?

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      • C Says:

        Oops, meant to put this under HammerAndNails Comment.

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      • Lisa Says:

        OMG yes.

        This should be a given – very few ppl will be EVERYONE’s type. When did we all become so narcissistic as to feel entitled to everyone’s attn?

        I will date only men who are 6′ or taller. Occasionally, I have made an exception for a guy who was 5′ 11″ if he was exceptionally good looking. (The reason is bc i’m tall and wear heels and want to be able to look him in the eye.) I don’t understand the argument that says I should “give a short guy a chance” if, despite how nice he is, I will always be bothered by his height. That’s not fair to either one of us. Leave him alone and let him find someone who truly appreciates him. There is no better feeling, in dating, when you meet a man who is truly of your dreams! Why deny yourself that feeling?!

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  3. HammersAndNails Says:

    “I don’t begrudge any man for preferring to date thin women. It’s the men who refuse to date anything other than slender women that bug me.”

    So basically, yes, you do begrudge a man the choice not to date women he doesn’t find attractive.

    I’m not even a skinny girl lover myself. I’m all about the t&a and dramatic waist to hips ratio guy, but I still think it’s bullshit how you are still trying to stealth shame men for having and exercising preferences. I’m sure it ‘bugs’ all the Staten island guys that you won’t give them a chance, but you never have much sympathy for their whining.

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    • ATWYSingle Says:

      Please. I’m always saying guys aren’t shallow for preferring younger/thinner women. It the guys (people, really) who insist upon ONLY dating such people that I condemn. There’s a distinction there that you’re missing.

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      • Avery_t Says:

        I don’t see the distinction, ATWYSingle.

        You use the word “insist,” which implies that it’s a conscious choice.

        Men rarely care what other people think. So, they rarely pick a mate based on social perception. Most men will hook up with any girl they think is attractive, regardless of what their friends might think. My point is that men don’t pick women based on a checklist, which is what the word “insist” implies to me.

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          Shocking that yet another short dude has an opinion on this. Anybody over 5’7″ have any thoughts?

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          • A to the F Says:

            Shocking that a fat chick tries to insult men by calling them short. Frankly I’m surprised you have tried to insult our dick size. Lol

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          • HammersAndNails Says:

            Short man insults is really your response? Wow.

            BTW, you were vague but if you think I’m a short guy, you have me confused with someone else.

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          • A Guy Says:

            Well since you want to hate on my shorter brothers I’ll give it a shot.

            6’2″ 185 10% bodyfat, 6/10 looks, balding (shaved head), sub 6 figure man. So at 5’7″ you are only 11 lbs. lighter and a whopping 7 inches shorter. I understand frame size very well since I am naturally a very slender framed guy myself, but in a year and a half managed to go from a skinny 145 to 185 lbs of muscle, I’m what is known as a hard gainer . I know very well what it takes to be a fit person. In fitness 80% of your results come from the kitchen, the rest is in the gym. Working out doesn’t mean squat if you drink 1000 calories a day in unnecessary liquids or shove cupcakes in your mouth after your workout. Most women need between 1200 to 1800 calories a day max.

            Being back in the dating game recently I see women like this all the time online. It always gets a chuckle out of me when I see a women post fit, average, athletic, or “curvy” when they are anything but. Fat is fat, stop sugar coating it. I purposely screen for fatties. Don’t want a woman who might give me a hernia if I decide I want to pick you up. Faulty advertisement is a red flag right out of the gate.

            We all have our preferences and deal breakers for who we will give a chance and are attracted to. I have no ill will towards any woman who I don’t meet her criteria, I wish them luck in love.

            Sorry but this post reeks of bitterness and self delusion. So what’s your type, tall dark handsome 6 figure man? Think you might be batting out of your league a bit? 47, overweight, faulty advertising (I smell spanx in that pic), with 5/10 looks, with unstable emotional health (as is evident from reading many a ranty posts).

            Sorry to say, that’s why your single.

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          • POV Says:

            Right because short men’s opinions don’t matter. Way to prove that certain men are shallow for preferring slender women, I guess…

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        • mindstar Says:

          Avery I’m going to have to call Bravo Sierra on your claim that “men don’t pick women based on a checklist”. A while back you went on ad nauseum about your ideal woman. I recall specific parameters as to age, waistsize and fitness level. Everyone has a checklist. Moxie’s point is about be willing to try people who don’t meet all the requirements on your checklist. In other words be flexible, think outside the box.

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          • Avery_t Says:

            What’s Bravo Sierra?

            My only requirements are

            a) as thin and fit as I am
            b) reads books.

            Thats not a long checklist. I have visible abs. You have visible abs. That’s my WHOLE checklist. And you are not illiterate. I don’t care about the following:

            – breast size
            – income
            – eye color
            – college name
            – social circle
            – job type
            – family background
            – height

            I care only about weight. Just weight. Thinness sis pretty much the ONLY thing I require. It’s almost completely about weight.

            But people on this blog are so hyper sensitive about weight that it SEEMS like a huge checklist and nobody on this blog will ever be receptive to any comment I ever make, because everybody is hyper sensitive about weight. This is not a place characterized by rationality. It’s a place characterized by women angry about weight.

            I am Zac Efron shape. I take visible abs for granted. To me, that’s a normal body.

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            • Tinker Says:

              If that is truly all you want then it shouldn’t be too hard to find. So what’s the hold up? Yes, we know you are short. So what else?

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            • LostSailor Says:

              Just because you have a short checklist doesn’t mean you don’t have a checklist, and a pretty iron-clad and shallow one at that.

              And for such a well-read man, the fact that you can’t noodle out Bravo Sierra makes me doubt those claims as well…

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      • DrivingMeNutes Says:

        I’m an admitted troll but I guess I’m missing the distinction too. Are you saying its a just matter of degree. Like, it’s okay if a woman “prefers” tall men as long as she occasionally goes out with a token short guy just for charity’s sake?

        I think you’re trying to straddle the fence. Your theory lacks a unifying principle. Pick a side. You think superficiality is always stupid if your aim is to find a relationship of “substance?” I’d agree with that. Or, you think superficiality is always okay in which case you can’t judge others for it.

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          By insist I mean will not even give somebody a chance for not being the exact prototype they seek. Like, won’t even meet them. Those are the people I’m talking about. Avery is a text book example. He wants washboard abs and certain body types and that’s that. There’s no wiggle room.

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            I’m under (

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            I’m under 5’7″ but I’m considered tall for a blue-ish person

            Sorry. Fucking iPhone interfering with conedy good

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            So then “condemn” is the wrong word. How about “a person who places too much value on superficial criteria will never find true contentment in relationhsips because superficial qualities, by definition. have no relation to substantive qualities like character and wisdom.” Probably too long for the fortune cookie.

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          • Tinker Says:

            If a guy can get dates with/have the types of relationships with women that fit his preferences then why would he date outside of them? Same goes for women.
            I think the only time people date outside of their preferences is if they are running some kind of experiment, are on the rebound and over correcting, have ‘given up’ on getting what they really want and are grudgingly trying to deal, or have gotten to know someone as a friend first and then decided to date them. Who wants to be on the receiving end of any of those reasons, except the last one? Better that they stick to their prototype than always finding you wanting.

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  4. Heather Says:

    Kudos to you! 174 Size 10 would be right due to her muscular build. Muscle weighs more than fat. I weighed 5 pounds less and was a size 10 when I was doing triathlons on a regular basis, A to F. So, NO, she is not self delusional. Everything mentioned in the above is so true. So glad I found this site! Thanks to Moxie’s continual advice, I am now in a healthy relationship. I finally looked in the mirror after six years of online and offline dating and realized I was the problem. This site helped me see that. I have passed this site on to my single friends. I LOVE YOU MOXIE XOXOXOXOXO

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  5. pov Says:

    Ok preference: Woman that “prefers” to date only men 6′ and above. (height:not a choice)
    Not ok preference: Men that “prefer” to date slender women.(weight: somewhat not a choice, YMMV)

    I am 6′, but the height annoys me. I pass them up based on that. I also pass up “curvy” women whose curves represent more like a beach ball than real curves.

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    • AC Says:

      Thank you for calling out the biggest double standard of them all. 100 thumbs up!

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    • Eliza Says:

      Whether someone’s physical appearance is a choice or “not a choice” – doesn’t really matter…because you can’t deny what turns one person on and what puts off another. That simple. Is it fair? No…because it basically doesn’t account for other fantastic attributes..but sometimes just like the heart knows what the heart wants…the eyes like what the eyes like! I have actually tried to be open-minded and date heavier men…but could NOT, really nice guys–but it just did not work! Why? Because not only where they too heavy–but they didn’t share the same lifestyle…and didn’t want to participate in any physical activity, sports, gym, had any energy. There are certain deal breakers–like smoking – which for me, I can’t overlook. Hey, am I missing out on perhaps some great guy…yes, but it’s a deal breaker. And yes, to a larger extent – it’s extremely superficial…but that’s how dating is overall…and ageism is definitely a part of that superficiality. Being youthful looking and usually thin is in. But if you are an ugly person inside, it won’t matter how fit you are. So, if you are energetic, positive, and have great qualities, who cares…eventually you will find your counterpart–and if not, that’s fine too. Not everyone that is part of a couple is 100% content. From what I hear.

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  6. AP Says:

    Oh pulleaze…muscle does not weigh more than fat. It’s the same concept as 20lbs of rocks weighing the SAME as 20lbs of feathers. They occupy different *volumes*. So if anything, muscle is more compact than fat. That’s why with working out, you can sometimes go down a few dress sizes without seeing a change in the scale. Let’s not skew basic facts in the defense of this article and author.

    And for the record, I’m a size 0/2, 125lbs, 5ft 5″ and have a lot of muscle since I lift regularly. It doesn’t make me skinny, and I ALSO think of myself as fit. You can be fit at various sizes.

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    • C Says:

      I’m sure everyone understands that muscle BY VOLUME weighs more then fat not that 1 pound of muscle weighs more then 1 pound of fat.

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      • AP Says:

        I was referring to Heather above: “174 Size 10 would be right due to her muscular build. Muscle weighs more than fat”.

        I’m just tired of wrong info like this. What’s a muscular build? Muscle with a few layers of fat on top? What you can’t change is your skeletal structure … you can however dictate how much fat and muscle you carry based on nutrition and your workouts. I always thought I was big-boned when I weighed 160lbs. And then after college, I finally got my sh*t together & went on a proper “get in shape” mission. And lo and below, I’m actually petite when all the layers of extra came off, and people are surprised that I was ever overweight.

        To the point of this conversation, weight is reversible. Height is not. I think everyone is entitled to insist on whatever they prefer, as long as they can get it. Everyone will have their preference. I’m considered attractive for the most part & have abs, but many may not date me because I’m not Caucasian…and well, that’s their prerogative. Nothing I can change about myself there, so I just move on along.

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        • Katherine Natasha Says:

          What is a muscular build? Having developed muscles. You had too much fat. You lost it and now you can see your tummy. Cool. But if you gained 50 pounds of muscle, would you go back to thinking you were fat, or would you call yourself something else?

          (Everyone is petite under their fat because everyone has a neutral, slim muscular structure. It takes effort to gain fifty pounds of muscle.)

          And, muscle does weight more than a bag of buttery fat. Duh. And, strength-muscles are stronger and weight more than bodybuilding muscles because strong sturdy legs have more fibers in them, while the art of bodybuilding is to increase the gel within muscles to make them larger and more beautiful.

          :)

          So, to sum up, a man can gain 15-20 pounds and be the same pants size by gaining lean muscle.

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  7. mindstar Says:

    Nailed it pov.

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  8. Ben Iyyar Says:

    When I reached thirty I grew up. I realized that I was not all that well built, certainly not particularly handsome but that I looked okay, and that my profession was at best average. And I also realized that most of the women I would meet and find desirable would not be all that well built, not particularly beautiful but nice looking, and they would have jobs or professions much like mine. And you know what, I finally felt free. I could comfortably be myself and if some women didn’t find that attractive, fine, I sure didn’t find every woman I met attractive either. But the women I met who seemed comfortable with their bodies, minds, faces, and jobs were the most attractive to me. I married a girl like that and after almost thirty four years of marriage and four kids, we have never been happier!

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  9. Nicole Says:

    “I don’t begrudge any man for preferring to date thin women. It’s the men who refuse to date anything other than slender women that bug me.”

    I feel differently about this – even after reading Moxie’s clarifications in the comments. If you are only physically attracted to thin women (or tall men, or women with big boobs, or whatever) then I think you should own it and only date those people. Otherwise you’re just wasting your time and the time of the not-your-type folks you’re dating. I believe attraction can grow and deepen over time, but if there’s zero initial spark, that’s not going to happen.

    I’m sure plenty of guys passed me by online for all kinds of reasons – doesn’t bother me at all. But the situations Moxie described in this piece would have probably scared me off dating altogether.

    Why would these guys bother contacting her and meeting if she’s not their type? I’m guessing they either wanted an ego boost or easy sex. But there’s a HUGE flaw in their plan there. Just because someone isn’t your ideal doesn’t mean they are hard up and desperate for dates.

    Peoples preferences run the gamut – I like guys with broad shoulders, my friend prefers super skinny men. Right here on this thread we have men who like skinny size 0s and others who love curves. A woman you think of as “maybe good enough for a slow night” probably got 10 messages today from guys who think she’s gorgeous and her body is perfect.

    I never bothered going out with men I felt no attraction to just to see if their mind and personality would somehow make me interested. And I would have been insulted, honestly, to realize that someone did that with me. As long as you are meeting people who fit your preferences, I don’t see any point in “giving a chance” to those who don’t.

    But that’s just me…I’m sure somebody has a story of how the person they never in a million years thought they could be attracted to turned out to be the love of their life!

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    • C Says:

      I totally agree.

      I once had a guy contact me online after seeing several current body pics online. After chatting me up, he asked me how much I weighed. I proudly told him 133 pounds. He then tells me “its no fun” for him to date women who didnt weigh 100-125 pounds.

      This jerk’s complete lack of social graces aside, I do understand how frustrating it is when someone finds you attractive until they find out that you are the wrong weight, or religion, or age, or income, etc… But everyone has a specific vision of what they want their partner to be like, and for some men, you’re not it and giving you a chance is just a waste of time. If a guy sees himself married to a woman who weighs 110 pounds, then by all means, move along son and dont waste my time.

      Isnt this all part of “knowing your audience”?

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      • Nicole Says:

        Sometimes I think it’s the lack of social graces that’s bothersome, not the preference itself. If you end up on a date with someone who you aren’t attracted to, it’s not that hard to paste a smile on your face, have a couple drinks, and then make up some bs excuse if they contact you again. Personally I’d rather have someone just fade on me after one date than tell me I’m too fat/skinny/short/old/whatever. I don’t get the need for no-holds-barred honesty in dating that some people have, especially online. When it’s only a few emails or one meeting, everyone knows it might not go anywhere, there’s no reason to be a jerk and make someone feel bad about it by telling them they don’t meet your arbitrary standards.

        Off topic, but I think most men have no idea what women weigh. Maybe so many women lie about it that their perception is distorted, I don’t know. I’m 5’4 and when I tell guys I weigh 125, they invariably say “no way – but you’re tiny!” It’s like they think anything over 100lbs is fat. Ok, rant over ;)

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        • C Says:

          Lol. I get the same shocked response from guys too. I’m 5’8 and had 15% body fat when I weighed 133 pounds which is actually significantly underweight. I wonder if its because so many women are shorter then we are. If you took my pelvic bone and stripped it of all flesh and muscle, the bone itself would never fit into size 2 pants.

          I totally agree. Lack of empathy and tact in dealing with another persons sincere interest is what makes dating awful much more so then the fact of being rejected.

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    • D. Says:

      This is about where I come out on the subject. Attraction isn’t something that can be forced. Either you feel it at least on some baseline level, or you don’t. While I find it hard to believe that a guy could literally not find ANY woman physically attractive UNLESS she meets some very narrow, rigid physical standard, if that’s really what’s going on, then it’s just a waste of time and energy for that guy to go out with someone to whom he isn’t attracted “to give her a chance.”

      If Moxie’s talking about the guys like in C’s story below, though, then I absolutely agree that those guys are idiots and why should anyone have patience for that bullshit? It’s totally arbitrary because, what, like you’re gonna whip out a scale on a date and throw her back if she’s over the limit? Come on. If the guy was attracted to her right up until she told him her weight (and social faux pas on his part for asking in the first damn place), then that’s just based on some mental block rather than actual attraction. It’d be like a woman finding a guy attractive until he tells her that he’s 5’11 and not actually 6′ like she thought.

      To my way of thinking, the “give it a chance” stuff is things like lifestyle or circumstances and such. Like, I used to refuse to date vegetarians and picky eaters…right up until I met a woman who was a “pescetarian” and awesome. It didn’t end up working out in the long run, but not because of her or my eating preferences. But stuff like that, yeah, it can be worth being flexible or at least open-minded if the person otherwise has much to recommend them.

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    • POV Says:

      Your post brings out something interesting. I think a lot of permanently single people are convinced that ONLY a certain type is for them, and that is preventing them from finding a partner. Seriously, if you’ve got it in your head that you can ONLY be attracted to a certain type, then you are probably destined and deserving to stay alone. Especially as we age. Geez, we see women complain that there are no good men, reality means that there are plenty, just not tall enough, or fit enough or doesn’t make enough money (“successful”).

      We also see guys who won’t date over Size 4. If you’re so stuck on attraction that you’re limiting yourself to a small minority of the dating market, maybe you should be alone. When you’re sick and on your deathbed alone, you can comfort yourself by saying “at least I didn’t hook up with a fatty.” Go with that…

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      • Avery_t Says:

        I think the truth is this (from my experience as a short guy):

        – women really don’t care that much about height, but they think they should. So they talk about it a lot.

        – men really do care about weight. but they almost never talk about it in public.

        I’m 5′ 7″ but have dated my share of attractive women, many of whom usually date tall guys.

        Men know that women’s requirements tend to be flexible. Men’s are less flexible. This is because looks matter more to men. Is this fair? Men’s income matters more to women than women’s income matters to men. An unemployed man will have a tough time finding a wife. An unemployed woman might find a husband who will give her diamonds and cars.

        I think the ONLY inflexible requirement most women have is income.

        You wrote:

        When you’re sick and on your deathbed alone, you can comfort yourself by saying “at least I didn’t hook up with a fatty.” Go with that…

        But you MIGHT say “at least I didn’t inflict a life of sexual disappointment some decent human being I married so as not to be alone.”

        If a wife thinks her husband is a failure, she may give him years of grief that are worse than solitude. If a man is not attracted to his wife, he intentionally or unintentionally make her feel terrible for years and years.

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        • C Says:

          Seriously? Are you still going on and on about height?

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          • Avery_t Says:

            that’s a topic here. look at the beginning of thread.

            I’d rather talk about Wittgenstein and J L Austin. But nobody on this board is close enough to my in IQ or education to make such conversations interesting to me.

            i am smarter and more educated that you are. my posts have more insight than yours do. reread them. you are lucky that i post here and that you have the privilege to read what I write.

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    • LaRubia Says:

      “Why would these guys bother contacting her and meeting if she’s not their type? I’m guessing they either wanted an ego boost or easy sex. But there’s a HUGE flaw in their plan there. Just because someone isn’t your ideal doesn’t mean they are hard up and desperate for dates.” THIS. EXACTLY!

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  10. Dark Sarcasm Says:

    “They aren’t judging me by my character or personality. They are judging me based on a size on a label. They see that first.”

    That’s the nature of online dating. They don’t give a damn about how well written your profile might be, or if you ‘seem’ fun, it’s all in those pictures, if they like what they see, they’ll respond. And by the way…based on what I’ve read on this blog and a few others, you know what prohibits some women from responding to an email or emailing back a man based on his picture (and they don’t seem to have someone’s character or personality in mind)

    -weight
    -age
    -children
    -race
    -bald
    -too much gray hair
    -short
    -income
    -if he’s by himself in the pictures
    -if he’s surrounded by women in his pictures
    -if he’s posing by a car
    -if he’s holding a fish
    -if he’s shirtless
    -if there are no pictures of him involved in some sort of fun activity
    -if he’s dressed in a sports jersey
    -pictures taken in a dimly lit room
    -selfies taken in a bathroom mirror

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  11. Lisa Says:

    So the pic in the black dress was at size 14? And the below-the-waist pic is at size 10? Seems like Moxie would look fine at a size 10 bc she didn’t look terrible at a 14. I know i’m overstepping here but I think moxie just needs a fun, more contemporary hairstyle. The one she has isn’t doing her any favors IMO (but she is still an attractive woman). That is really sad and strange that age-appropriate men wouldn’t appreciate her looks. (I wonder if she is meeting ethnic men or just WASPs or what?)

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    • Betty Says:

      Lisa, you sound like a real asshole. I don’t think Moxie was asking for your beauty advice.

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      • ATWYSingle Says:

        Something tells me that “friends always come to me asking for advice” loosely translates to “They talk about something and I give my opinion even though they didn’t ask for it.”

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      • Lisa Says:

        possibly lol

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  12. Lexy Says:

    What kills me is how many guys who claim to be fitness & health nuts are on the chunky/fat side! It’s like you can’t be that size & a fitness nut! I work with a guy whose a health & fitness buff – but he’s in great shape & has an awesome body! Which he works hard at keeping so I get that he wants to date women similar to him. But these Chunks claiming to be fitness guru’s need to stop!

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    • LostSailor Says:

      But these Chunks claiming to be fitness guru’s need to stop!

      Well, if you say so, we’ll get right on that.

      Or not…

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      • lexy Says:

        Lost Sailor my point is these men need to stop lying about their level of physical fitness b/c it’s sad. Just own being chunky! I see these Chunks and think they must consider walking to the fridge or eating standing up a fitness routine!

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          Did it occur to you that maybe they checked off “fit” just to come up in more searches?

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          • HammersAndNails Says:

            ie, wasting other peoples time.

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            • D. Says:

              Yeah, but honestly, how much time is really being wasted here? You can scan through search results and see who you find attractive. You can open a profile and scan the pics to see if you find them attractive. And if you don’t, at any point in that process, you can move on. And the whole thing will take, what, 30 seconds? Maybe 40 if your computer is running slowly?

              I’ll admit, I’ve looked at profiles of people who listed themselves as XYZ body type and I thought they were delusional, but you know what I did? I closed their profile and clicked on the next one. Big deal.

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              • A Guy Says:

                I agree with HammerandNails, it’s nothing but waisting other peoples time, as well trying to get your foot in the door based on a lie.

                I live within about 50 miles of Nashville which is a pretty big city. I have to screen matches by some criteria because I don’t want to sit there and go through 500 profiles. I couldn’t imagine how many search results would come up in a really large city like NY, LA, or Chicago.

                It seems completely crazy to advocate lying to come up in more search results. You’re intentionally waisting others time because they are just going to have to manually filter you out anyway, it’s very frustrating.

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        • POV Says:

          I’m sure you’re totally down for going out on a date with a chunky guy who “owns it”, right? If you aren’t do us all a favor sweetie, put your exact standards in your profile so that no one makes the mistake of contacting you.

          kthxbai

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        • LostSailor Says:

          Well, lexy, men certainly should manage your expectations. Forthwith, such men shall present themselves to you with a pink “Sad Chunk–I Own It!!” T-shirts so you can see them coming and duck out the back door.

          Disregarding the fact that you don’t know where they started their journey to Chunkness and the idea that one can indeed work out regularly and still be working out the Chunkitude, us men want to make sure we get the terminology right (this is a universal thing, right, we wouldn’t want to disappoint non-lexy women?):

          Is there a level between a Fat and a Chunk? Perhaps a Funk? (Not to worry, it’s still sad.) Is there a level between a Chunk and a Hunk? Perhaps a Half-Chunk? I’m petitioning OKC and Match today to immediately institute these new labels and I want to get it right so sad, lying, Chunks don’t inconvenience you by appearing in your sight.

          Is there a female equivalent to a Chunk? Perhaps women are a Funk? Maybe just a Flab?

          I presume that you, lexy, given your disdain, are neither a Chunk, a Fat, a Funk, or a Flab.

          What fanciful label shall you claim for yourself? After all, we want to be fair, right?

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          • Betty Says:

            It’s funny–I guess that guy I dated who was doing hella weight lifting and was a fitness nut, but happened to be 5’5″ and built like a fucking barrel was just a fatty.

            EXCEPT…not.

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          • LostSailor Says:

            Yeah, I think I’ve figured out a hierarchy. OKC and Match are gonna love it. From Hot to Not:

            a Hunk
            a Sub-Hunk (aka Skunk)
            a Chunk
            a Super-Chunk
            a Fat
            a Super Fat
            a Top Fat
            a GigantiChunkFat

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    • Eliza Says:

      Lexy! Yes, absolutely! I recently went on a date, with some guy who (over the phone) – after exchange 2 emails on OKC insisted he was in great shape, worked out all week, was so fit, bla bla bla. We meet…and I saw a pudgy puffy man sitting across from me. He was overweight–but he was 5’6, on the short side–and PUFFY, a “chunkie” as you put it. He also had a gut, very apparent…with clothing on. So, don’t doubt he do workout–but as mentioned above – 90% if what you do in the kitchen, not merely the weight room. AND many men focus ONLY on weight lifting….and don’t neglect cardiovascular. Inspite of his perception not aligning with mine, we still had a nice conversation/time at a cafe, I would NEVER say to him–“Sorry, not for me”…there is such a thing as being humane and sensitive to others.

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      • A Guy Says:

        You are a better person than me. Guys shouldn’t misrepresent themselves online either. I would have walked out on them and not thought twice about it other than being ticked off I got tricked. Accepting their false representation just encourages them not to change their ways, same way if I got lured out on a date with a fatty, just the way I look at it anyway.

        Sorry my shorter brothers, if you are 5’6″, don’t put down 5’10”. Some women may not know the difference between 5′ 6″ and 5′ 8″, but they are going to notice half a heads difference in height. If you are shorter, own it. Just go after the shorties :).

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        • C Says:

          I wouldnt be so harsh. More then likely, the guy lacked self awareness andwasnt lying to anyone but himself. I can honestly say when I look at my scale, I can see I’m getting fat but when I look in the mirror, I dont always see it.

          I think Yvonne did the right thing.  

          As for lying about hieght…omg yes! A woman who is 5’0 may not know the difference between 5’6 and 5’8, but since I’m 5’8, I finally had to stop accepting dates from men who claimed to be 5’8 because I towered over most of them.

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        • Eliza Says:

          C: The thing is this: While some people are well aware that they are being deceptive and using the online dating approach by concealing factual information…some men and women are convinced they are “fit”. Again, this guy and I had a handful of phone calls leading up to our lunch date–maybe 2 calls, because I limited it to that–since I didn’t want to build any type of ideas in my head…UNTIL I sat across from Mr. Gym. He insisted how he had a six pack, and how dedicated he was to working out, etc. I NEVER emphasized how important it was for me to date someone that includes fitness into their daily routine either…all I did say, is I work out during the week, and in the summer/spring I enjoy tennis or running or going for group hikes. I am active. And it’s nice to be able to share that with a partner. He was a “humlebrag” – as I read that term here once…he also verbally kept on going about how much of a gentleman he was, and how easy going, bla bla bla. Frankly-I don’t go by what I ‘Hear” or especially read at times…I go by ACTIONS. A person’s gestures, manners towards me and others speaks volumes. So perhaps he wasn’t being dishonest – just to “Lure me into meeting him”–his perception is different from mine. In my mind, someone with a six pack looks like Ryan Gosling…sorry fellas…I know there are some haters out there! But yes, the Goslings of the world are very cut up, in shape, slender…not puff daddies…you know? But again, that is only my opinion. And sorry to disappoint–but many women can more or less tell if someone is 5’6 or 5’8. Women may be able to get away with height disparity–if they wear heels…and I personally love wearing heels…so I towered over this 5’6 Puffy man. I could care less what others thought–but frankly, to look down at a guy is just not appealing to me. And to POV: Learn to read, never said Puffy’s workout was wrong for his stature.

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        • Eliza Says:

          Sorry A Guy: you write “Some women may not know the difference between 5′ 6″ and 5′ 8″, but they are going to notice half a heads difference in height. If you are shorter, own it. Just go after the shorties”.

          OK…the problem with that is JUST because women are on the petite side – 5’4 or shorter–doesn’t mean those women are not looking for tall men either – and by tell I mean 5’9, not 6’0+. Just because we are shorter, doesn’t mean we don’t find what ALL women find and are naturally inclined to find “attractive”. Tall men. We like what we like…inspite of how WE look or our other shortcomings.

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          • mindstar Says:

            So since “ALL women find and are naturally inclined to find “attractive”. Tall men…” you should not have an issue with the fact that most men find slim women attractive.

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            • Eliza Says:

              MStar: I don’t find nor have an issue with men wanting/liking what they want. i could care less. Everyone is entitled to their preferences of course.

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          • A Guy Says:

            Ok, question for the lady’s then because I find this interesting. So a short woman, say 5’0″ to 5’4″ still wants someone pushing 6’0″, a three or four inch gap isn’t enough? Do women know that only 14.5% of men are 6’0″ or taller, and only 3.9% are 6′ 2″ or taller like myself?

            Like I said earlier, recently back in the dating game. Is my height something that the majority of women seriously want? I have always heard this, but other than comments like “Your tall”, “How tall are you”, that seems to be about all that’s said about it, haha or does the pining over height go on behind one’s back?

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            • Nicole Says:

              I can’t speak for all women, but for me, a few inches gap in height is plenty. I admit that I don’t want to tower over a guy, even in heels… But I’m 5’4 and the highest heels I own are 4″ tops, so it’s not likely to ever happen lol.

              My ex husband is 5’10, my boyfriend is 6’2. I only know those numbers because they told me. They (and most other people) fall into the category of “much taller than me”.

              I once dated a guy who was 6’4. That I did notice. Kissing was awkward, if I was in bare feet.

              So no, we don’t all want the tallest guys. Honestly I had no idea that this was a thing until I started reading this blog. In the infinite hours I’ve spent listening to women brag about their dudes, I have never heard a single friend mention her boyfriends height, ever.

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              • A Guy Says:

                Thanks for the reply.

                “I once dated a guy who was 6’4. That I did notice. Kissing was awkward, if I was in bare feet.”

                I can relate. My last gf was 5′ 4″ and kissing is a little award being hunched over.

                “So no, we don’t all want the tallest guys. Honestly I had no idea that this was a thing until I started reading this blog. In the infinite hours I’ve spent listening to women brag about their dudes, I have never heard a single friend mention her boyfriends height, ever.”

                This is what I have always leaned on too, unless its subconscious, but I do think it gets blown out of proportion online. I see average and shorter height guys with women all the time including friends. It’s not like us taller guys are just drowning in women. Considering the average guy is 5’9″ and woman is 5’4″ (this one surprised me, thought it would be taller) that leaves plenty of heel height room.

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            • Avery_t Says:

              I’m male and 5′ 7″. Online I list as 5 9″, because I’ve read that women automatically subtract two inches from a man’s listed height.

              At 5′ 9″, almost the only women who view me are
              a) Asian
              b) Latino
              c) women I have viewed who are looking to see who viewed them.

              When I have tried listing myself as 5′ 10″, all sorts of women view. That inch makes a big difference in who views me an dhow many views I get. Once day I listed myself as a 5′ 11′. Attractive women literally just sent me their phone numbers. Unsolicited emails with phone numbers from attractive women.

              Women know 5′ 10″ is average and don’t want men who are below average. I don’t think that it’s the case that a man who’s 5′ 10″ makes her wet but a man who’s 5′ 9″ does not make her wet. I think it’s that being the girl at the party with the short boyfriend makes her feel shame. It’s as much about shame as it is about desire.

              But if it’s a woman’s short boyfriend who is hosting the party at his house in the Hamptons, she might feel great pride even though all the male guests are taller than her boyfriend, because she’s with the guy who owns the house in the Hamptons.

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              • LostSailor Says:

                Hmmm. I list my height in my online profile as 5″9″ because, strangely enough, I’m 5’9″. Hasn’t seemed to have been a problem attracting attention, messages, and dates from all sorts of women, some my height, some shorter. Understandably not many from women taller. Which is fine.

                But I must call Bravo Sierra on your claim that lying about your height in increasing increments lead women to just sending you their phone numbers. You think women feel shame at being seen with shorter men because you are ashamed of your height-challengness. They have to meet you eventually, and your great shame and fear is that they won’t be impressed by your attempted compensation for diminutive stature with your “visible” abs and claims of wealth. You have the mentality of a short-man who knows he can’t measure up in other ways as a human being. This leads to exaggeration and aggrandizement. This used to be called the Napoleon Complex. (Which is misnamed because Napoleon was pretty much the average height for his time.)

                You claim elsewhere here that women are hypersensitive about weight, but people can lose weight while you will never compensate for your height until you get over your own hypersensitivity and overcompensation for it.

                People don’t believe your comments because we don’t buy into your peculiar delusionis…

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                • ATWYSingle Says:

                  I’d also like to add, since I’ve seen Avery’s profile, that it is abundantly clear from his photos that he is not 5’9″. I will even challenge his claim that he’s 5’7″ judging by the amount of space between his head and the top of his photos. He can list himself as whatever he likes. The photos don’t lie. I will spit ball a guess and say he’s maybe 5’5″.

                  I think a lot of men of shorter stature like to assume that women are being heightist when they don’t reply to their messages or don’t want a second date. When, more than likely, there’s something bigger (hah!) going on that is making these men unattractive to these women. 5’7″ isn’t that short. A 5’7″ guy could list himself at 5’8″ and nobody would know the difference. But a 5’7″ guy who is actually 5’5″ is going to have more trouble, because your average woman is about 5’2″ – 5’5″. Therefore, we know those heights better and can recognize and identify them.

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                  • C Says:

                    Tom Cruise is 5’7 and Usher is 5’8. They seem to do ok with the ladies last I checked. In fact they were doing just fine with the ladies before they had money and went on to make tons of money because women love them. Did anyone elses head just explode?

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              • bbdawg Says:

                Avery, you’re a freak, a nutcase. That is why women don’t talk to you or respond to you. STOP OBSESSING ABOUT HEIGHT. YOUR HEIGHT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM. You are someone who specified the size of the waist a woman needed to have on your profile. 26 inches I recall. You also mentioned this woman needs to work out, and should ideally look like Jessica Biel. You had a FOLDER of photos of Jessica Biel on your dating profile. You sounded like a stalker who was proud to live on the same “Tribeca building” as actress Ashley Benson if I recall correctly. No one who is remotely normal is going to take a second look at your profile. You sound creepy, dangerous and out of touch with reality.

                Your red flags scream from 2 miles away before your height becomes noticeable.

                Jesus Christ it’s not about your height.

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      • POV Says:

        You’re awesome how you oh so correctly pinpointed how his workout routine is wrong from a short date. Have you considered being a personal trainer?

        Personally, I have never had a discussion online about my workout routine- maybe because I give zero fucks about what a online dating prospect thinks about my workout plan.

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  13. Jessica Says:

    Woman posts photos of her body and expresses confidence in it.
    Men come in to take her down a peg.
    Women offer unsolicited advice about how she could improve her looks.

    Just another day on the internet I guess.

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  14. The D-man Says:

    “Sorry. Not for me.”

    Wow, sorry to hear about that. It must have felt really shitty. I’ve had some semi-unpleasant experiences dating, but I don’t recall anything like this. What a shithead.

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  15. John Says:

    For all the people who cant decide if a woman is in shape or not , here is a quick way to tell:

    If you can’t see her collarbones, she is not in shape.

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  16. Erin Says:

    One of the reasons I keep returning is I can usually be assured of a good laugh on at least some of the comments. Most times I just read, laugh and that is that but today one comment just has me more than laughing. Whoever said Christina Hendricks is a size l0 well if you believe that I have some land to sell you. I LOVE MAD MEN and think Christina Hendricks is an attractive woman but Christina Hendricks is NOT a size l0 in this Universe. One thing that most men never get is that a good portion of the women in their lives have lied to them about weight and size so most have no idea what a certain size actually looks like unless someone is deathly thin or obese. Often times woman who are a size 12 claim to be a 6 and the men in their life are not going to question them. On the other end of the spectrum I had a friend who was a size 4 and always talked about how she was fat. her five year old son listened to her talk about being fat for so long one day at school he told the teacher his MOM was fat and she knew his Mom and couldn’t imagine why the little boy said that until she questioned said MOM. She quit saying she was fat. Most men couldn’t guess weight or size if their lives depended on it.

    Another great example is the fact Kim Kardashion claims to be a size 2. Again, in what Universe would her but fit into a size 2. Now she actually does have that extreme ratio of waist to hip size and as men above have mentioned there are a lot of men who love that but there is no way she has ever been a size 2 in her adult life!!!

    Lots of women lie about their weight and size so if you tell the truth as Moxie has done even though she looks pretty damn good people think a Size 10 that has to be big when, in fact , for a woman 5′ 7 ( I think Moxie has said that is her height) a Size 10 while not skinny is a perfectly acceptable size! Telling the truth can kill you in these circumstances when all too many people lie!!

    Everyone is entitled to their likes and preferences. Look around and we all can see each individual will probably appeal to someone in the right circumstances.

    Someone above said you can be a size 2 and not be fit at all and be a size 12 and be quite fit. Be the person YOU want to be and find a way to be happy and most people will be able to find another person to be happy with unless they have some ridiculous ideal of who might be right for them.

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    • lexy Says:

      Kim Kardashian is like 5’2 and she wears very clingy clothes. If she’s not a size 2 max she’s a size 4. And as her sister Khloe always says being next to Kim and Kourtney who are petite does make her look big. When she’s next to Kendall or Kylie she looks fine. Rob Kardashian on the other hand is fat…though at least he owns it.

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  17. Jesse Says:

    I’m 5-8 1/2″, which is on the short side of the (men’s height)bell curve. I have been judged by women since the age of 14 for any number of reasons, but my (lack of) height has always been an issue with girls. I fully comprehend that 50% of the female population has always ignored me simply on the basis of my height, which continues to this day despite the facts that I own my own home, make over 6 figures and am somewhat above average in attractiveness. There is a seperate world for tall people, just as there is a seperate world for the beautiful people and the wealthy. So be it.

    Moxie, welcome to “acceptance of your own reality.” Yes, by not being a size 2-4 you are apart from all those women who are. Most men get to the point of accepting their reality a lot sooner than you have, but welcome nonetheless.

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  18. Yvonne Says:

    What bothers me most is most is not that we have preferences. That is a given. But what bothers me is how incredibly rude some of the men Moxie describes have been. If you need to date a size 2, go for it. But don’t set up dates with someone and then get all wishy-washy about it. If you’d rather not go, don’t waste the other person’s time. The guy who stood her up because he couldn’t be bothered to meet her in person, but had to send a cowardly asshole text, well, that is just despicable. Lucky for her that she didn’t meet him.

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  19. John Says:

    Moxie says:
    “Please. I’m always saying guys aren’t shallow for preferring younger/thinner women. It the guys (people, really) who insist upon ONLY dating such people that I condemn”

    Yvonne says:
    But don’t set up dates with someone and then get all wishy-washy about it. If you’d rather not go, don’t waste the other person’s time.

    So the guy is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Moxie seems annoyed if a guy ONLY dates thin women. But if he does date her against his preferences, then it goes against Yvonne’s advice.

    Such a polarizing topic even within the same gender.

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    • Yvonne Says:

      I agree that people need to keep an open mind, try dating outside your type if other things about the person appeal. Give them a chance in person. But if you are really not at all attracted to someone, then don’t set up a date. Whatever you do, be respectful. The man who stood Moxie up should have had the courtesy to meet her since the date was almost underway.

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      • POV Says:

        Ok, and I’m asking because I am not sure of the answer to this, but why? So the guy had pre-determined that she was not for him, why does he need to go through with it, only to fade on her later? His real “sin” was setting up the date with her in the first place. Then again, who really know what his objection was to Moxie? It could have been something not related to her being curvy.

        It is clear that we project our insecurities onto others. So someone who is not cool with their body would assume that others objection to them would be based on their body. It could be something else. Not her personality because he never actually met her. It could be many things. Moxie assumes it’s her girth because that’s what she’s least secure about.

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        • Yvonne Says:

          Of course, he shouldn’t have made the date in the first place, but he he did. She was waiting for him. In my book, that is too late to cancel. To not even bother to show up to have one quick drink, and then sending a crappy text an hour later, is just plain rude. Doesn’t even matter why. Even if she wasn’t the love of his life, he might still have had a pleasant date without managing to humiliate someone.

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  20. LostSailor Says:

    Wow. This thread–a repost if I’m not mistaken–sure turned nasty–and personal–fast.

    Yes, everyone has preferences. There’s nothing wrong with that. I certainly accept that not every woman is going to be attracted to me, whether that’s based on my body type, fitness level, high forehead, white skin, finances, age, clothing sense, astrological sign, aura, or because I wear glasses. And Moxie’s point was, big whoop.

    I also understand her point that people who turn preferences into strict barriers are probably missing out. I, too, like a majority of men, prefer women who are not overweight and are generally fit. I make no apologies for my preference. But I’m not locked into rigid specifics within that. Why? Because I’m open to meeting someone who may not meet all of the checklist criteria we all secretly harbor, all wanting the “hot” partner, and am open to seeing if I really click with her.

    And that’s the real core of the issue. If your so focused on externals, you miss the internals, which ultimately are what really make a connection and really make a possible lasting relationship. Yes, if the initial attraction isn’t there, then nothing further is likely to develop, but if you’re concentrating on the checklist, on how closely someone you might date meets the specific physical critera you have lurking in your mind, you’re going to miss some opportunities. Which is also fine, but you also can’t really suggest that this is the only approach and everyone should follow your approach.

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  21. POV Says:

    I would summarize this blog post as “Some men will never date me because o my body and for some reason I’m not ok with that still.”

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  22. Howard Says:

    I had a conversation with a group of guys last Friday evening. One guy, a self-avowed player, said to me, “your woman is so beautiful, you’re such a lucky guy.” I replied to him without thinking, “Yes, I’m a very lucky man, but I do the things to be lucky, devotion counts for something.” A momentary hush just kinda fell over the conversations. I guess they were digesting that.

    I have had people tell me this lucky thing about all sorts of things. I could psycho-analyze it to death, but there is much truth in doing the things to be lucky. Sometimes it’s harder, because we have been dealt a bad hand in something that is dear to us. Weight issues fall into this category, with genetics playing a great role. Women were definitely designed to have more fat. Even the fittest female marathon runners carry 10% body fat compared to their male counterparts at 4%.

    So women do have to work at it harder to lose weight. That said, there is still a lot of room for getting lucky. What typically happens, is that people simply don’t wish to do the heavy lifting to get lucky. Habit is unfortunately the biggest determining factor in these things. Getting started and getting in the habit, by some type of positive reinforcement, is the key to success. Too many people get carried away, and imagine training their bodies is more important than training their brains. The result is always pain, which is a message from our body to cease all such activities.

    Then there is this portion size thing when it comes to eating. When we go to Europe, we are often quite shocked at the portion sizes, how small they are. We just have to adjust our way of thinking of what the size of a meal should be.

    But getting to the topic at hand, where we hear the self-gratifying pronouncements about being ok with this or that, no one needs to be a shrink, to grasp the self-delusory nature of such pronouncements. Of course it still bothers people. These pronouncements have become a salve to soothe our inability to stay on track. I suppose there is no real harm in such pronouncements if we still plan on doing something about a condition that still bothers us, and trust me, it still does bother us. The problem comes, when such pronouncements, lead to apathy.

    There is however much power in adapting and accepting what ever level we are, in the dating game, especially if we can’t change that condition. Obviously, changing one’s height is near impossible, unless one is insanely desperate enough to have some surgeon break one’s legs to gain a couple of inches. I suppose one can surgically change one’s breast size, or do liposuction or a Brazilian butt lift too. When it comes to weight however, there is a solution for more than 80% of people out there. I thus find such coping mechanisms regarding weight, to be a trap unto themselves.

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    • Eliza Says:

      I agree with Howard 100%…one trainer I know and become friends with always said – “Showing up” is 70% of the equation – the rest is comprised of will, and at times, fear…Fear is a great motivator. For some, it’s fear of getting diabetes, or being ill and for others it’s the fear of not being accepted and for others a combination of both. I think a balance in life as in anything else is key…and yes, self acceptance is paramount–but not being complacent and giving up and doing your best to address one’s health and emotional well being. And with every goal there is a sacrifice…so rather than deprive ourselves entirely from indulgences, like a happy hour or having pizza or chinese–perhaps not having that so often. Apathy is dangerous. I agree.

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  23. Mark Says:

    From my perspective the excerpt goes to the heart of the issue:

    “He replied and apologized profusely. He reassured me that he still wished to meet and explained that he was new to the site and had a couple of dates with women who looked nothing like their photos.

    I refused to further audition for this stranger. I also had no desire to deal with someone who was so suspicious of the online dating process. Either you’re in or you’re out, brah. Take the risk or step aside.

    “Understood,” I said. “But that’s not me.”

    The day of the date, he canceled citing work issues….”

    Hey, Moxie posted several photo’s. As she stated they were of different types/angles/settings and were time stamped. He could have reasonably deduced her body type from those plain and simple. For him to further ask for more photo’s was lame. Ditto for his sudden work issue and the reschedule. Frankly, it sounded like he already made up his mind and determined that Moxie might fall into the Plan B (or C, D, etc) if the others he had in mind didn’t pan out.

    Since Moxie did all that a reasonable person in a similar situation would reasonably be expected to do, her decision not to “jump through hoops” is totally understandable. Why would anyone feel the need to do so? Why would you even want to?

    To look at it from a slightly different perspective:

    You can take any/all characteristic of any person or profile and put some type of checkmark against it. I’ll also be the first to say to someone who does that “you know, your right.” Big ones, small ones, important ones, silly ones, take your pick. I will still say “your right.” But after you go through that and have difficulty in setting up dates or keeping company with those who pass the initial meet and greet stage I have no trouble in also saying “Well, what did you expect?”

    The guy in this letter seems typical of the “not looking for perfect, just perfect for me” type of thinking. He’s going to grasping as an ideal that is so much smoke. There’s a good chance he’ll always be grasping, but never quite catching that elusive ideal that he has formed in his mind. At least until he is slapped with a good reality check or two. It’s also not much of a wonder why he is single.

    Some good responses to the original post. Also some strange ones.

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