Where Dating & Feminism Take a Really Bad Turn #atwys

The latest Dater X post brings up an interesting topic. o-COUPLE-MONEY-facebook


When I start seeing someone new, being treated to drinks or dinner usually indicates to me that the guy is willing to put his best foot forward and woo me. I always, ALWAYS offer to pay, but rarely am I ever taken up on it. And quite honestly, if any new guy I’m dating did suggest we go dutch or expect me to pay on the first couple of dates, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. Luckily (or maybe not so luckily?), I’ve never gotten to the point in a relationship where money needed to be discussed.

Anyway, Scar Twin has always paid the bills on our dates, occasionally allowing me to pay the tip or for after-dinner drinks. I’ve never taken his generosity for granted, especially because we’ve gone to several restaurants that are on the nicer side. I’m not talking suit-and-tie places, but you know … nice. Recently, he finally accepted my offer to give him some money toward my meal after we dined at a fairly swanky bistro in my town, per my recommendation. Then, this week, he suggested he make us a reservation for a romantic, yummy restaurant with a great view that he thought I might like. It wasn’t overly expensive, but it wasn’t your run-of-the-mill pub food either. When the check finally came, he took it and put down his credit card. As usual, I took out my wallet and offered to help.

“Thank you for offering, but I got it,” he said. “And we haven’t really talked about it at all, but would you feel comfortable alternating who pays from now on? Like, I’ll get this one, you can get the next, and so on?”

The question Dater X poses after this exchange with this guy is how long does it typically take for new couples to start taking turns paying for things.

As I mentioned in my comment, it seemed odd to me that it took almost 2 months of several dates a week for this thought to occur to her seemed odd to me. While everybody was rushing to tell her what a great sign it was that he broached this conversation, I suggested that he brought it up out of annoyance because he was continuously paying the tab without her once making a concerted effort to cover it herself. He shouldn’t have had to say anything.

Making a disingenuous offer to kick in your share when you’ll only hold it against him later is not the same thing as grabbing that check when it comes to the table and putting your card in the little leather envelope and handing it to the server. Most guys know when women are pretending to want to contribute, and they also know if they accept their contribution that it will be a mark on their record. So they suck it up and pay. Which is funny, because I don’t think most women give a thought to how it makes them look by not making a genuine effort to reciprocate financially.

I did really enjoy this comment written in response to the article:

I feel that a lot of people, in the interests of “equality”, make a big deal about how they would never let/expect the guy to pay and I used to agree with that (but secretly prefer if the guy insisted on paying). Then I read a really well argued article (which I wish I had saved, might have been here!) by a feminist talking about how that’s all very well and good in an equaltopia, but the reality is that the nature of dating culture is that women (most/frequently) invest a lot more money in dating related things – waxing, appearance etc is one example as well as paying for birth control even when in a long term relationship. And yes you may argue, you don’t have to wax anything or engage in any societally expected beauty rituals, but chances are the guy dating you if you do would not date you if you were au natural and wearing sensible beige shoes.#

This is where feminism takes a really bad and illogical turn.

First, all those expenses women incur would be incurred regardless of whether or not they were dating someone. Let’s break this delusion down point by point:

Haircuts, mani-pedis, clothes, etc are all costs a woman would incurr regardless of whether she was dating someone. If you only keep yourself up when you have a man in your life, then guess what? That means that your making choices that are based upon gaining male approval. You are grooming and changing your body to appease a man and meet what you believe are his requirements of what’s attractive. I don’t believe for a second that someone who regularly engages in this kind of upkeep just stops it all when there is no manz in the picture. Cut the crap. This sort of maintenance is stuff most men wouldn’t even notice. Do you think guys give a shit about my eyebrows? No. They don’t notice how sparse they look. Know who notices that kind of thing? Other women. That’s usually why many women place such importance on these aspects of their physical appearance. PS? Most guys don’t give a shit about your shoes. Men who place style high up on the priority list do that because they want to use their woman as some kind of trophy so they can show her off.

Next we’ll address the waxing issue. I’m sorry, but you can not fall back on feminism to justify why you choose to groom your bikini line. That’s ridiculous. Something like that should be a personal choice, not one we base on whether or not a man will approve of it.  If your choice was to always trim and groom because that’s how you like it, that’s different. I find it hard to believe that women who like to keep their vagina neatly trimmed and waxed just let it all grow wild when they’re not getting any action. Either you base your choice of personal maintenance on your preferences or you do it for a guy. Guess which one falls more in line with feminist principles?

Finally, the birth control issue. Okay, let’s stop with the insanity of this point. Women do not go off and on The Pill or any other contraceptive device that directly impacts their cycle. That wreaks havoc on your body. Arbitrarily stopping and starting any medication that regulates chemicals and hormones is utter foolishness. You go on The Pill or similar birth control, you stay on The Pill until you decide you no longer wish to be on The Pill.

The way women who staunchly identify as feminists refuse to concede on the issue of finances in regards to dating kill me. Either you want equality or you don’t.




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55 Responses to “Where Dating & Feminism Take a Really Bad Turn #atwys”

  1. bored Says:

    OMG–the comments on this article on the Frisky are infuriating!! Such entitlement. Such . . . ignorance!
    This: <>
    Wow. Do ya really? Of course you do. But how about you put on your big girl undies and insist on paying instead of doing the fake wallet reach? Does he know you have $112 in your bank account? Probably not. And to Moxie’s point– if you can’t afford to go out with the possibility that you may need to pay, DON’T.
    Sorry–i just can’t!!

  2. Alex Says:

    Moxie is spot on with her insight

    It’s simple really, first date -guys should pay 100%. Subsequent dates can be split accordingly

    For the guys, set a budget and try to sick to it. First dates shouldn’t be at the best steakhouse in the city either.

    For the girls that don’t offer to pay, you have to carry your own weight down the road if you want a relationship (or don’t you believe in equal rights and responsibilities?). Men won’t respect or think highly of you if you don’t at least offer to pay for a portion unless you’re in a sugar babies relationship

  3. Kyra Says:

    I’m just going to say it’s not a genuine offer if you hope he’s going to push it away and be your fairy-tale prince.

    I think women have just as much a responsibility to pay for their entertainment. We aren’t living in the 50s when few women worked and got allowances from their husbands.

  4. mindstar Says:

    Most “feminists” want both equality and privilege depending on which one provides the most benefit to them at that particular moment.

    • AC Says:

      Most “feminists” want both equality and privilege depending on which one provides the most benefit to them at that particular moment.

      You hit the ail on the head.

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      Most all people will, at times, use principled complaints and high-minded ideals to get things they want from other people.

      There are damn few people who pull their own weight all the time.

  5. Robyn Says:

    Going on and off The Pill is a really bad idea, for the reasons already mentioned.
    Plus: It takes at least a full cycle once you re-start (or when you switch Pill brands) for The Pill to be fully effective – so if you can’t wait for that full month before you get it on, you’re running a big risk of “contraceptive failure”.
    I have 2 nephews as a result of the above scenario’s ;)
    And these days, as a result of the ACA, everyone should be getting The Pill for free. Even before the ACA, you could go to Planned Parenthood & get it for next-to-nothing if you could prove financial hardship.
    And you can still get condoms for free at Planned Parenthood.

  6. D. Says:

    Look, the arguments about why men ought to pay all basically seem to boil down to “Because I [the woman] don’t want to pay, and society is set up so that I don’t have to.” Feminist arguments in favor of this position are, quite simply, horseshit.

    If you’re arguing from a feminist perspective, then the entire concept of “men must pursue, and as part of that, must demonstrate their worth to women by paying for things” is itself just another piece of the patriarchy and any defense thereof requires basically undisguised hypocrisy or other disingenuous argumentation tactics (e.g., “Well, there’s so much inequality in this other aspect, that it’s ok for us to keep it over here where it benefits me.”).

    Even a defense of “The guy should pay on the first date” is total nonsense. Whoever asks should pay, and if you claim to be a feminist, then there’s no inherent reason why the guy should be asking and/or paying. Most of the time, it just boils down to “Because I like it” or “Because it’s nice for me.”

    Most guys know this. Many guys accept this and are ok with it. I don’t think that Dater X’s guy was necessarily annoyed at her (again, assuming any of this was real), because plenty of guys don’t question this approach very much, and just go with the flow on it. Some guys will find it irritating, and it’s certainly going to be appreciated in most cases if a woman does something like asking a guy out to dinner and picking up the tab, but really, it’s just the lay of the land. It’s unfair, and it’s indefensible from a feminist perspective, but whatever.

  7. Nicole Says:

    “While everybody was rushing to tell her what a great sign it was that he broached this conversation, I suggested that he brought it up out of annoyance because he was continuously paying the tab without her once making a concerted effort to cover it herself. He shouldn’t have had to say anything.”

    Agree. The whole conversation sounds awkward, though as we’ve discussed before, most of dater x’s dialogue sounds awkward, so it could just be her writing.Personally I would feel pretty embarrassed if a guy had to suggest I pay more often, which is basically what happened here.

    I’ve always let guys pay on the first date or two (and yes, “let” is the right word, I always offered to chip in and always got the offended look in response). On the second or third date, I grab the check and smile and say it’s “my turn”. And going forward, taking turns paying becomes natural. Sure, there are exceptions – my bf has been known to make up an excuse to pay if it’s “my turn” and the bill is $200 (Hey, it’s almost your quarter birthday! My treat!). But for the most part, I’ve always found simply alternating who pays to be a hell of a lot easier than splitting checks or keeping track of who’s spent what.

    As for the money women spend looking good for dates – yeah, that’s ridiculous. If anything I spent MORE on clothes, hair, makeup, etc when I was going out with my girlfriends to chase random boys than I do now, when most nights are spent at my house or my bf’s house just hanging out. And it completely ignores that men spend time and money to look nice, too.

  8. AC Says:

    “I suggested that he brought it up out of annoyance because he was continuously paying the tab without her once making a concerted effort to cover it herself.”

    No question about it. The guy did what he perceived to be the right thing. Now that they’ve been dating a couple of months, wants Dater X to do her part.

  9. BTownGirl Says:

    The only time the whole paying for things issue has felt awkward for me was when I dated a Kuwaiti man and, apparently, their culture is “The man pays. Period. How is this even a discussion?” I handled it by going all out for his birthday and holidays, so I didn’t feel like a total slouch. As for the Dater X column, I don’t get the debate. Of course you switch off. If they refuse to let you pay for dinner, you hand your card directly to the bartender when you stop off for a drink on the way home. Personally, I’d feel like an ass if I was in her shoes on this one.

  10. LostSailor Says:

    Indeed. Birth control is now “free” with your insurance. I saw a feminist suggestion a while back that “feminine hygiene” products like tampons should be free or subsidized because…well, because.

    It’s not hypocritical for Feminists to insist that men should always pay on dates (because, reasons), it’s a fundamental part of the plan: men pay for free stuff for women. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.

    And, yes, Moxie is quite correct, ladies. Us guys always know that your wallet grab is fake and you never really intended to pay. How do we know this? Special male Psionic powers? No. We know because you don’t pay. And you give up too easily. On paying, that is. You usually don’t give up easily on the other stuff…

    • DMN the Wise Says:

      Ha. Yeah, he crinkled his nose when I offered to pay so I assumed he was offended to the core of his being and never offered again. Don’t even get me started on “Kuwaiti culture.” I’m fairly certain Kuwaiti men, in addition to “always paying” have some fairly rigid expectations of their women. So, I take it you embraced those aspect of that culture too? Or just the “guy always pays” part.

      I don’t blame women for this. You are all just generally oblivious to the issue. I blame your fathers.

      • LostSailor Says:

        I, for one, have embraced no aspects of Kuwaiti culture. I’m a WASP. I embrace WASP culture.

      • BTownGirl Says:

        Well, all I know is that he was (and I assume still is) a lovely person and always treated me with respect. If there are negative aspects of his culture, he certainly wasn’t an example of them. I actually did tell him that I felt badly that he was always paying for everything and asked him to let me reciprocate. He told me that for the way he was raised – which I assume was very traditional – not sure if that’s exactly the right word, but you get the point, it was out of the question and considered very disrespectful to the woman. As I mentioned in my comment, I was extremely generous with special occasion gifts to make up for it.

    • AnnieNonymous Says:

      The recent news blurb about subsidized feminine products was about a female journalist asking if tampons were subsidized anywhere, not suggesting that they should be.

      Get your basic news right before using it to paint all women negatively.

      • LostSailor Says:

        Oh, I have my basic facts right.

        The “journalist” was Jessica Valenti who started “asking if feminine products were subsidized ‘anywhere'” in a tweet. She then wrote an article in the Guardian that started talking about the difficulty of women in third-world countries having access to feminine products and quickly moved to how difficult was for poor women in the West to afford feminine products, and ending up advocating for such products to be free for all women. That call was quickly echoed by feminist writer Amanda Marcotte at Slate.

        I’m not misrepresenting anything or “painting all women negatively,” I’m merely stating the facts of what certain feminists have said.

        If there’s a problem, talk to them, not me…

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      Yeah, but consider this. A woman generally feels better when a man takes care of her in some way. Idealism aside, feelings are what really matter. No amount of guilting or scolding will change that fact.

      By paying for her over and over again, he’s making her feel better on a regular basis. I suppose some women would be satisfied with that arrangement. And some men enjoy paying all the time because they feel like they’re fulfilling their role as provider.

  11. bbdawg Says:

    Nowadays many women now make more money than men so this isn’t sustainable to ask for the man to pay if the woman has a high-paying job. Both can afford to split the check. This should be equitable, meaning somewhat proportional to what the man makes vs. what the woman makes. Otherwise this feels exploitative. The first 3 dates or so, fine. Thereafter? You have to split or offer to pay at least half. It doesn’t feel right.

  12. John Says:

    Actually, I am surprised the guy even asked her to pay. I think most guys, me included, would have just faded on her. She got a second chance to correct the situation.

    • BostonRobin Says:

      I kind of wondered about her usual two month wall she says she hits in her dating. Like, the guys put up with this for that long. Maybe they even drop hints she’s not picking up?

  13. Jeanne Says:

    This is kinda silly. But then again, I am in NY. When I meet someone at a bar and am enjoying the conversation, I start to stress…will he think I want him to pay? Will he think I am rushing out the door out of disinterest if I settle my tab early? 9.75 times out if ten he races out the door to avoid having to buy me a drink I didn’t want him to buy! I had one relationship where I was scrupulous about splitting the bill…he laughed cuz I was peculiar. In another where he pays, but he makes me feel like he is paying for me. I guess my point is just get over it, be fair, and decide if you are in it for each other or for a night out.

  14. AnnieNonymous Says:

    This Dater X story isn’t a great launch pad for any sort of reasoned discourse. It strikes me as strange that she’s been going to expensive restaurants for two months with a guy and they’re not even on the track to being in a committed relationship. Not even talking about it. That means that, independently of how either one of them approaches dating, at least one of them has expensive tastes. In the example given, the guy seems like the one who upgrades the dates a lot. It’s just a bad litmus test for the discussion about who should pay on dates.

    Usually by the two-month mark, you’re in a phase where you’re starting to cook at home more or bring takeout to each other’s houses. In my experience, this is when any initial expenses on the guy’s behalf tend to even out, since the woman is cooking at home and she’s buying the groceries. At least the way I’ve gone about it.

    I do find the nickel-and-diming aspect of this conversation to be one of those things where people like to have opinions about it even if they’ve never experienced it. If you’re a guy who not-so-secretly wants sex fairly early in the game, I expect you to pay for a few $3 beers. Do something for me, and I’ll think harder about stepping out of my comfort zone.

    • mindstar Says:

      Where does one find $3 beers in Manhattan? I’d love to know

      • LostSailor Says:

        There are a surprising number of places where you can get $3.00 beer in Manhattan. You just can’t be picky about what kind of beer you’re getting. Look for low-key neighborhood haunts, usually with a “Irish” name. Many will have specials on Rolling Rock or PBR cans. Some places have “bucket” deals where you get 4 or 5 bottles in a bucket of ice that works out to around or less-than $3 per.

        Tip: If there are lots of fancy cocktails on offer, you’re in the wrong place…

  15. Nia Says:

    I think the idea of a man paying comes from a more old fashioned time where a) men made more money overall than women, who might have even been living in their parents’ house while dating and b) it represents both an exchange and a show of suitability. The man shows his “worth” as a suitor and gives something of value (his money) while she gives something that is equally of value: her affection, attention, and time–her “heart” and her promise. (We’re talkin’ turn of the century, here, not in the recent past).

    This tradition has held over until now for many reasons (it works for women, changing it seems weird, some men genuinely enjoy being Big Daddy on a date, etc), but one I don’t see touched on is that perhaps in today’s confusing society, both men and women tacitly use the paying for dates at the beginning thing to allow men to feel needed and women to feel special.

    I know men don’t want to be needed exclusively for their wallets, and women don’t want to feel paid for or like they owe a guy, so maybe it’s time to put this tradition to rest.

    But unless you’re at the state fair shooting gallery game, a high stakes poker club, or a bowling alley, how else is a man supposed to “flex” for you? (Kind of kidding!)

    I would love it if a guy showed me how emotionally supportive he is, how sensitive, caring, observant, and loyal he is…but on a first date? He can just show me he’s willing to invest…his money. :)

    Having said that, a first date to meet “the possible” from online dating is not special and should be inexpensive (perhaps two glasses of wine, or a beer and apps?) Also, everyone with a shred of self awareness that’s dated in the last few decades knows: after 3 dates, you go Dutch or make a serious, sincere effort to either go Dutch or treat–and whoever “invites” pays, regardless of gender, until the 3rd date.

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “after 3 dates, you go Dutch or make a serious, sincere effort to either go Dutch or treat”

      What makes the first 3 dates in particular exempt from this? If you really want equality, it has to start from day (date) one; you can’t give one side an advantage for a while and then claim equality after that without ever balancing the scales.

      “and whoever “invites” pays, regardless of gender, until the 3rd date.”

      That sounds fair on the surface, but we all know that men do almost all of the inviting, so this equates to “the man pays”. It’s better to admit you’re sexist than to pretend you’re not–and fail.

  16. Damien Says:

    Men with successful careers like their lifestyle and are also aware of the costs of living and saving for retirement. Unless they are the rare uber rich, they are very cognizant of how a long term relationship and marriage will affect this picture.

    If a woman is not making a reasonable income, these guys would not be contemplating anything long term with her, unless she was very attractive and has an awesome personality. This concern becomes more relevant in the 30s and especially the 40s.

    These guys would be more interested in women who can help contribute to a partnership. It is not just about taking turns paying. When a woman is showing that she can afford to take a guy out on a date, that is a turn-on and it shows that she is thinking about the long term.

    Someone like this Dater X won’t even make the cut, because of her attitude. I haven’t read her column, but just based on the summary here, she sounds like a co-dependent leach with too much time on her hands doing exhibitionist blogs, rather than working on the kind of career that would impress a man with a professional career and ambitions.

  17. Angelina Says:

    Hello all – no one seems to be talking about the idea that maybe the guy WANTS to pay for the first date. This being a way for him to say “hey, I think you’re cool and I’d like the chance to get to know you better.” Paying for the date is a way to tell the girl that he’s interested and his intensions are genuine. And that he’s a catch because he is aware of how paying will make a girl feel special. The act of paying for the date is one of the guy’s cards in this game we call dating.

    Let’s remember that it’s not a financially driven relationship where complete equanimity must be attained in order for there to be synergy. Synergy happens when the guy does things that make the girl feel special and the girl does things (different things) that make the guy feel special. We will shop for and cook a yummy meal of his favorite meatloaf recipe, we will make sure his mother gets a lovely bouquet of flowers on her birthday, we will laugh at his client’s jokes at the big conference, we will be his own personal sex kitten AND be the one to clean the sheets afterward.

    Paying for the first few dates and then doing other things for her that you know will make her smile is part of the give and take that makes dating and falling in love so joyous.

    Personally, I don’t offer to contribute to the first date. But I will be certain to give a sincere “thank you so much for the drink, it was a pleasure chatting with you and good luck on the big presentation tomorrow”. Once we progress to the third or fourth date, I will happily grab the check and say “I’d like to treat you to this one.” Hence launching into the you do things for me and I do things for you stage of the relationship. Let the fun begin!

    • DMN the Wise Says:

      So, assuming this hypothetical man and his date are offered the meal and drinks for free by the restaurant because, I don’t know, they’re the most adorable couple. According to your thought, he would turn down the free meal and drinks because he “wants” to pay, right? No. He wants to make a good impression. He knows that paying will accomplish that. Not the same thing as “wanting” to pay.

    • D. Says:

      Gotta agree with DMN here. It’s not so much that a guy wants to pay, in the sense of “I wish to make an expenditure,” but rather that the guy wants to impress the woman or show his enjoyment of her company or appreciation for her time, and the way to do that is by spending money.

      Alternatively, consider the following: what would the average woman think if a guy showed up on a first date, and paid for drinks or dinner with a Groupon or an OpenTable check?

    • mgm531 Says:

      You put into words my thoughts on this. As a man I think of paying on the first date or two as sort of a well meaning gesture to indicate an interest. It’s akin to offering to buy lunch or dinner for an old friend that you haven’t seen in a long time. It’s saying something in action along the lines of “Please allow me the pleasure of enjoying your company with this well meaning gesture”. If I ask a woman out on a date I want to pay not because I will think it to be seen as a good gesture, but rather because I am indicating to them that the time spent with them is what is important to me, not about who pays the check. I’m not going to quibble about who pays what on the first few dates because those experiences are what will indicate to me whether it’s worth my time to invest more emotional energy into the relationship. If after those first few dates I’m not getting a good feeling about things or if I feel that I’m investing more effort or money into the relationship than I’m getting in return then I will most definitely lose interest and do the ‘fade’ as they say.

      • Tara Says:

        I’m sorry, but a person who does the “fade” on someone is disgusting. I don’t care if it’s male or female. It’s not respectful. The decent thing to do if you are dating someone is to have an honest conversation BEFORE you leave and tell the person that it isn’t working for you. If they ask why, tell them. Simple.

        • hippiefreak Says:

          > If they ask why, tell them. Simple.

          Not simple. Of course they will ask why. Wouldn’t you? That you think they might not ask is suggestive that your idea is untested by you. I doubt if you yourself would make it work for a man to tell you a decision has been made. You’d give him a hard time and disrespect his decision. Admit it, you would. You would not say, “Thank you for letting me know. I wish you the best.” Oh, no. You would not make it “simple”.

    • Greg Figueroa Says:

      Why wait to the third or fourth date to grab check? Why not the second? Does his intentions become that much clearer after 3 dates?

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “no one seems to be talking about the idea that maybe the guy WANTS to pay for the first date.”

      Nobody’s talking about that because the idea is ludicrous; nobody WANTS to pay for anything. We pay because that’s the usually the only (legal) way to get whatever it is we do want.

      “Paying for the date is a way to tell the girl that he’s interested and his intensions are genuine. And that he’s a catch because he is aware of how paying will make a girl feel special. The act of paying for the date is one of the guy’s cards in this game we call dating.”

      It’s a card, but it doesn’t have the meaning you seem to assign to it; it just means the guy knows that if he doesn’t pay, the woman will think him cheap. He is buying her perception, whether it is a correct one or not. It certainly has nothing to do with whether his intentions are “genuine”.

      “Paying for the first few dates and then doing other things for her that you know will make her smile is part of the give and take that makes dating and falling in love so joyous.”

      Joyous for the woman, perhaps, because she’s not the one footing the bill for those dates. I’d be “joyous” too if I could count on other people to buy me food and drinks all the time!

  18. Shadowcat Says:

    I have had EXTREMLY negative reactions to my very genuine offer to pay, so I don’t understand what men want. Sometimes they read it as disinterest on my part and honestly were sometimes correct.

    I’ve also read many comments where men complain that women didn’t open their legs fast enough to compensate for the number of dinners he paid for, so maybe it’s actually more empowering for everyone if the couple goes Dutch…

    • Crotch Rocket Says:

      “I have had EXTREMLY negative reactions to my very genuine offer to pay, so I don’t understand what men want. Sometimes they read it as disinterest on my part and honestly were sometimes correct.”

      That’s how I would interpret an offer to split the check, though I would say my reaction is “disappointed” (assuming I wanted to see her again) rather than “extremely negative”. My experience is that if I ask a woman out again after she does so, she’ll either say no or won’t respond at all.

      OTOH, if I pick up the check on the first date and she offers to pick up the next date, I take that as a sign she’s investing in me and, obviously, wants to see me again if she’s talking about the “next date” before I even ask for one.

      “I’ve also read many comments where men complain that women didn’t open their legs fast enough to compensate for the number of dinners he paid for,”

      A few guys are indeed that crass, but for most guys, it’s more that the woman isn’t contributing anything to the dating process or otherwise indicating his interest is reciprocated, and sex is simply the most obvious example of how she could do either/both.

      “so maybe it’s actually more empowering for everyone if the couple goes Dutch…”

      I’ve heard that’s the norm in Europe, which is generally ahead of the US on gender equality. I don’t recommend that here because it could be interpreted the wrong way (see above), but YMMV.

  19. Tara Says:

    I don’t think I’m liking what I’m hearing on this thread. Is that the way it is nowadays? The man pays for the first few dinners, then if the woman doesn’t open her legs fast enough for him to justify his investment then he’s gone?! Well,sorry, Buh bye! I expect the man to pay for the first two or three dates, and then we can go dutch. HOWEVER, his generosity doesn’t entitle him to what’s between my legs. Sorry. And any woman that gives in to that entitled mentality by a man is either hard up for sex or crazy.

    • Greg Figueroa Says:

      So he shouldn’t feel entitled, but you feel entitled to free dates. Read what you post. You can’t knock a guy for doing the same thing you’re doing. You’re both entitled. If he didn’t pay for the dates that would be a mark against him and you won’t see him again.

      He doesn’t feel like it’s worth dating the girl anymore so he fades.

      Here’s a dirty secret about men: they evaluate women too.

      • Tara Says:

        I am old-fashioned, meaning that the man pursues the woman, not the other way around. It always works best that way, just ask the women on here. That way, you will have less men fading on you because if a man is interested in any way, he will pursue. What goes along with that pursuit, should be the time-honored way of courting a woman. I am not a feminist, that is what I believe it. But, make no mistake, I am the man’s equal too. Anyway, that is how courting should be done in my opinion. As I said before: courting (paying for dates) does not equal or entitle him to free sex.

        • Joey Giraud Says:

          We’re all having a hard time here. There’s a lot of old fashioned things people used to do that we really want to stop doing, like pillaging, cannibalism, slavery, burning witches, you get the idea.

          It’s hard to change. In general we men *do* like chasing and pampering women, and in general women *do* like to be chased and pampered and cared for, almost like it’s in our wiring from birth. Geez, you might almost think it has something to do with evolution.

          But nowadays we frown on those things, because equality and freedom and humanism and decency…

          For myself, I haven’t burned a witch in years, and I’m not about to start up again no matter how cathartic it feels.

        • mindstar Says:

          Tara since you are “old fashioned” do you also practice the rest of what goes along with that belief?

          Do you defer to the man’s opinion in all things? Would you happily be barefoot and pregnant?

          If you worked would you turn over all your earnings to your husband?

          I’m going to go out on a limb here and say no. Don’t wave the flag of being “old fashioned” as a way to simply supplment your food and entertainment budget.

          • K Says:

            I can’t spake for Tara as I don’t know what her notion of old fashioned is. For me, yes I do prefer men to pay for the first dates, pull out chairs, help me with my coat, generally drive, etc. Even now my current bf generally pays for dinners especially if there is another couple with us. I’m not coasting, as I cook way fancier dinners for him (his are usually very basic) and I buy tickets for a lot of events he enjoys, but because he’s not as socially connected or a planner he would never get them in time. In return for a lot of “old fashioned behavior” on this end, I dote on him, like getting up to cook us breakfast, give him massages. I have a successful career so I’m not looking to have him pay my way, but I like our more traditional ways of doing things. It’s one of the reasons we are more compatible. My ex was more of an “egalitarian” type where he liked to split bills. There is nothing wrong with either approach, just find a person who you mesh with. Also I’m not saying he couldn’t do the things in return that I do for him. It’s just I like some of the more masculine behavior ways of treating me.

            • Crotch Rocket Says:

              In your case, you both are each contributing things of value to the relationship (and to the other person specifically), even if they don’t happen to be the same things. That’s fine; equal doesn’t have to mean identical. However, that is also within the context of an established relationship.

              On the first few dates, there is no relationship, and the women who appeal to “tradition” are not contributing anything to said dates except showing up, and therein lies the problem.

              • K Says:

                I wasn’t doing a whole lot on the first few dates, besides being super enthusiastic, engaging (laughing and generally being impressed by him), being affectionate and of course doing my best to look great for him (even if I was pulling a 10 hour day I made a lot of effort, a lot more than he did in this dept). Current guy picked up the tabs last guy I could tell was uncomfortable. It sorts itself out.

        • hippiefreak Says:

          Tara, you are competing with women who easily put out nowadays. With lots of women putting out, I’d think you would want to distinguish yourself early on with your date regarding old-fashioned style. However, right now you are sending ME mixed messages by saying you are old-fashioned when it makes you its beneficiary, yet you do not explain what you will give to the man to make him a beneficiary, too. All you offer is that it works best that way for women. Men see this imbalance. Then you say “But, make no mistake, I am the man’s equal too.” which is a warning that you will again be a beneficiary, but of things you leave undefined. It’s tilted towards you, all the way. You are making it clear you intend to have it both ways, old-fashioned and modern. Men would see no square deal on the table with this, and your competition is still there.

    • D. Says:

      Is that the way it is nowadays? The man pays for the first few dinners, then if the woman doesn’t open her legs fast enough for him to justify his investment then he’s gone?!

      In a sense, yes. But then, that was always the case. It’s nothing new. The timeline may have been longer before the man would realize “She’s not into me” and move on, but the basic concept has pretty much always existed.

      It depends on the guy, of course. Sometimes it’s about just sex, but most of the time it’s about actual interest on her part. It’s not about being old fashioned, either. It’s really just about actually showing a guy you are into him, and continuing to accept date requests from him just doesn’t qualify all by itself. There has to be something more. That doesn’t necessarily mean sex, but it does mean that men are looking for something back other than “I invite you to continue paying attention to me.”

      I expect if you polled the guys on this site and in your life, they’d all be able to cite at least one or two examples of women whom they dated who continued accepting dates, but otherwise didn’t indicate any particular interest in them. And I’d bet those same men eventually just…moved on. Maybe it took 3 dates, maybe it took 6, but they moved on.

      I mean, go ahead and continue saying “I’m old fashioned.” That may work for you. Or it may not. But if it’s not, it may be because what you perceive as “being old fashioned,” the guys are perceiving as “not really that interested in me.” Why would a guy keep spending his time and money on you if you aren’t indicating that you’re interested?

      • mindstar Says:

        “There has to be something more. That doesn’t necessarily mean sex, but it does mean that men are looking for something back other than “I invite you to continue paying attention to me.”

        Absolutely nailed it.

  20. Greg Figueroa Says:

    I don’t think it was a good sign for dater X. The guy was annoyed. It’s like telling someone that you’re tired of taking up the load and it would be nice for the other person to actually contribute.

    Depending where his mind is at there is another negative added to his list about her. When those negatives add up, a lot of men may decide to fade and keep it moving.

    I like that he spoke up and wasn’t passive about it, and not expecting her to suddenly gain some common sense and fairness out of the blue.

    The writing is on the wall if her awareness is this bad, it will end soon. Why wouldn’t you want to impress the guy that is great and wonderful?

  21. Tara Says:

    Ok, I will give this guy something back. I have been texting him in the mornings saying that I hope he has a good day. Tomorrow night will be our third date and he has invited me out to dinner. He’s paying of course. I’m in between jobs and he knows this, but even if I weren’t, he would pay. He bought me lunch last Sat. and took me around to see places as I’m new to this state, then we had drinks. I offered to pay the tip on the drinks, he said, “save your money”. :) Hehehe. I did buy him and I some bottled water on the way home, he didn’t want me to do that. He opens the car doors for me. All the other gentlemanly stuff a man is supposed to do in my opinion. This is what I like, and this is how I will be treated. I will tell him to dial back the spending until I get a job after this date. After three dates, I like to chip in. :)

  22. Tara Says:

    The guy that I’m seeing just texted me that he, “would do anything for me”. This is getting good. :D

  23. C Says:

    The guy having to explain that she needs to chip in once in a while? Ewwww, how awkward! I would be mortified!

    As for the rest, its kind of complicated. As a woman, try insisting on paying “your share” and see how many 2nd and 3rd dates you get and what the quality of those dates will be. I used to INSIST on always paying my half when I was in my 20s and needless to say it was very awkward.

    If I could pay my own bill without coming off as disinterested or as an overbearing bitch, I would much prefer that…but I cant. So I walked the fine line and finally settling on I always offer to pay but dont insist on paying until around the 3rd date when my interest was more obvious.

    I’m not sure how simple bad manners got lumped in with feminism here. I’m all for equal pay for equal work and shattering the glass cieling, but what about taking a guy to the cleaners suggests female equality? Seems like any idiot can call herself a feminist and start spewing garbage online.

    For the record though, no, I do not shave my hoo-ha unless my hoo-ha is expecting company.

  24. Ray Says:

    I’m sorry but this is bottom of the barrel dating, when you combine it with men who bail if they don’t get sex I wouldn’t even call it dating. The day a woman can walk into a room and get a pat on the back for having gone on 3 dates that week with 3 different guys where she got no commitment sex from them and it didn’t cost her any more than the price of her own meal is the day it will be ok for a woman to go dutch on the first few dates. Men who get screened out by this are brothel creepers out to get what they usually pay for for free, are attached and cheating, or have no concept of what constitutes a healthy relationship, they have nothing to offer a woman, a man who does knows how to ask for casual sex and doesn’t have to lie and pretend date to get it, a guy who does you can bet is going to be half baked and selfish in bed too so he’s not even good for that.

    Feminism has nothing to do with it, feminism was about addressing a crippling power imbalance not about making women into men, men who complain about having to invest something of themselves haven’t come to terms with the fact they need to now be a decent human being they can’t just buy a wife anymore (good men have always known you can’t buy a good woman), those who expect women to carry them (like women don’t carry the heaviest load at home as it is) need to realize a partner isn’t their mommy. You want to be woman on top expect men will have contempt for you and take you for a ride, should women cut their hair off, stop wearing make up and pee standing up too? Stop with the having something to prove and try being yourself, being a try hard makes you a puppet. There are ways to pick up a tab or treat a man to something without compromising your femininity, threatening his masculinity and establishing yourself as a force to be reckoned with without being threatening about it. If you’re a woman and you go for this dutch rubbish you’re either naive, have such low self esteem you think you’re not worth respect, are trying to get the attention of a man that otherwise isn’t all that into you (in which case expect you’ll need to continue to bend over backwards and will always be looking over your shoulder) or you’re just not coming off as a desirable woman in general (or aren’t meeting enough people) and since no one is asking you out you have to play along with this tit for tat con with bottom feeders to get a date.

    Men who treat you (and taking you out is treating you, it’s not something you’re entitled to) at the very least do so because they know if they don’t another man will and he wants to be at the top of your list of choices, he’s trying to make a good impression, if he’s not trying he doesn’t care and you’re not worth much to him, he in fact thinks you are cheap, I’ll bet he’s also late, not well presented, not attentive and the conversation is the stonewalled variety, a loaded one centered around feeling you out for what he can get instead of telling you anything worthwhile about himself or getting to know you. Offering to pay when it’s already been established he’s taking you out and he’s treating you is an insult because you are in effect trying to give him back the gift he’s just tried to give to you, you’re not allowing him to do something nice for you, are even implying he’s like the above mentioned deadbeats. If you do this with a European man you will get a lecture you will never forget and identify yourself to him as easy white trash and “not a real woman”, you can’t complain men don’t act like men and don’t nurture when right from the outset you won’t let them. And men this is the chance for you to take control and set the tone of the future relationship, if you go old school you should expect a woman to dress for you and be on her best behaviour, if letting it all hang out on a dutch date where no one really cares enough to put anything into it is fine with you don’t be shocked when she wears sweats to bed and tells you what she really thinks about your friends.

    Good men value your company and enjoy the social banter of dating, it’s a social event not a receipt to give their accountant and if he’s not into you he has no business dating you. People talk about money and it’s the wrong focus, if you’re keeping tabs you’re out with the wrong person, what about behaviour? Would you want the company of an unpleasant, mundane woman and pay the bill? And ladies would you listen to a bore all night if all you got out of it was a free meal? Of course not. If you people all make so much money and are so sophisticated what’s the problem with a guy making a show of a date? You guys worried a man who does will show you up? Letting a woman pay makes a man look flaccid and pussy whipped, no competitor needed, but get chosen from a pool of suitors who’ve gone all out and you’re the better man. The people I go out with the men lead, they don’t just pick up the womens tab they cover the whole group, take turns paying, the women repay by organizing and hosting the parties. Don’t underestimate how much men like a home cooked meal and how rewarding it is to spoil him with something you made with your own hands. My sister married a man who went dutch on everything (they’re now getting divorced) they were so anal about it she had a ledger of who owed who how much and a split mortgage, would you want that kind of relationship? What kind of relationship do you want, one where you keep score and are always saying “where’s my share”? Or one where no matter how much you do for someone you always want to do more because that’s how they feel about you? Do want to wake up and look over at your partner and feel like the luckiest person on earth, or toss and turn all night entertaining thoughts of smothering them with a pillow?

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