Don’t Be A Dating Don’t Bee

February 9th, 2015

Awkward, Bad Dates, NEW!, Online Dating

Alias (DO NOT USE A REAL NAME!!): deliusfandontbee
Comment: So after a decent first set of interactions online with a girl, and even a 50 minute phone conversation that kept her laughing, I thought we were in a good place for a first encounter, if not full-fledged date.  Since she didn’t live in my city, yet not too far away, at first I asked her to come up with a possible venue for fear of dragging her (Yelp review notwithstanding) to some really awful section of town for simply not knowing.  She did seem slightly reluctant, so I bit the bullet, did the research, and then found a winebar that was off the charts, ratings-wise.

A second phone call happened to seal the deal with details; I was stunned when she responds, “Oh, by the way, I don’t drink…” which threw me for a loop since I didn’t remember anything of the sort being on her profile.  I played it off as best as I could, since I didn’t have a backup location and said well, they also have awesome small plates or we can totally blow this firetrap if we get there and decide the location sucks.  Rereading her profile that night, the drinking detail said “rarely” not, “not at all”, which, to be perfectly honest, causes me to move on by since wines are a big part of my life, even if only a couple of times a week rather than every day.

I get to the location early.  Super early.  As in it’s not open for another hour and I’m in a city I don’t know on a Sunday afternoon and it looks pretty residential around there.  I have an hour to kill, and no Starbuck’s in sight.  I’m starting to really wonder about the location I’ve chosen, but ditch the car, anyway, and start walking toward civilization.  After passing a lot of awesome other places that I make note of, I finally manage to knock out the hour and hurry back.  I arrive right at 5:00 on the dot when the place opens, and it also happened to be the time I had suggested.  There was a couple waiting for the door to unlock, and me, no one else around.  The doors open, the couple enter, I look around, see no one, and go on in to freshen up in the restroom for a minute if that.  I come back out, scan the room, no one else, and take a seat in the middle of the bar, obviously alone, and with a good view of the front door (at least of the winter curtains that are up to keep out the cold).  The door is very audible; I look up every time it opens.  No one of her description.  I also notice the picture window but don’t exactly stare out of it the entire time.  Time passes.  10 minutes, 15.  I’m a musician; musicians are typically 15 minutes late.  At 20 minutes I decide to send her a quick text just to point out that I’m at the bar, but there’s no rush.  Sidenote; she has already pointed out an aversion to texts, but the music was pretty loud and I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to understand the conversation without putting all my layers back on and going back outside to talk.  The phone rings a few minutes later.  She states that she is driving home, and is livid.  She never saw me.  I’m stunned; I have been sitting at the bar from about 5:01 and on, and no one of her description came in the door. I tell her I’m sorry she feels the way she does, but I don’t apologize since I don’t know exactly what I would be apologizing for.  I mention all of this to the bartender after the phone call ends, not exactly on the highest of notes, and he says he did notice someone of her description walk by the window but never come inside.

It’s winter; was I supposed to meet her outside and outside only?  No one ever said on either side of the conversation “I’ll meet you outside,” rather, it was “I’ll meet you there.”  I have meetings and other dates all the time; unless someone says “I’ll meet you outside”, I always go in and look for them, and grab a table if they’re not yet arrived, especially since I have reservations the vast majority of the time.  If the weather is great, then sometimes I’ll hang around outside just because I want to.  She said during the last conversation on the phone (that I could barely understand with the loud music) that I should have called, not texted.  But she, too, could have called before driving away at the least.  Did I really have a breach of protocol, here, or is this simply an overreaction that I have no control of?
Age: 41
City: Fort Lee
State: New Jersey

You did nothing wrong other than overindulge this woman’s high maintenance attitude and paranoia. This woman is a classic Don’t Bee. She doesn’t like texting, she gets miffed if you suggest she find a place even though you’re actually trying to do her a favor, she doesn’t bother to walk inside the venue to see if you were inside like any normal human being would. She doesn’t give an inch at all.

If she’s the one who suggested you chat on the phone first, then this is a textbook example of why people who require that phone call should be avoided at all costs. It’s a hoop to jump. Not only that, but people who still insist on that phone call usually overly suspicious and socially awkward. Coaches who tell women to insist on this phone call are almost ensuring that they only guys who will date them are desperate ones.

Any normal person with even a moderate amount of social skills knows to stick their head inside the venue and look around before leaving a previously agreed upon location. Not only did she not check inside, but she didn’t even bother to contact you in some way to make sure she had the right spot. Nope. She went right to The Don’t Bee Place and stomped off, never bothering to check in with you in some way just in case you were lying in a ditch somewhere.  Of course, that’s if she even showed up at all. If she’s as nuts as she sounds, I could totally see her bailing last minute and not even telling you.

Next time, just shoot your date a text and say, “Hey, I got here a little early. I’m inside!” That way, you have your bases covered.

I call these people time wasters because they suck the ever loving life out of other people’s online dating experience.You stick around a site long enough and you learn how to spot them. Here are some other signs you might have an encountered a Dating Don’t Bee:

*They require a phone call- Seriously. If someone is still using that call as any kind of litmus test, they’re an idiot. There is absolutely no value to that call other than to learn if they have a speech impediment of some kind, and even that isn’t a big deal.

*They won’t meet you half way. Literally. – Anybody who selects a venue location that is close to them but really far from you should get a hard pass. This isn’t the 1800’s where men were expected to go to the women.

*They require a few days or more of emailing before they’ll even consider meeting you. – Anybody who prefers to linger online is a flake and a time waster. If you’re someone who genuinely wants to meet people, then you know how arduous the back and forth messaging can get. No one should actively choose to engage in that, and if they do, then they’re scared little turtles afraid to come out of their shell. Next.

*They won’t give out any personal contact details. – Again, I have a zero tolerance policy for people who don’t give phone or email info and insist we communicate via the site only. Beat it. If they’re that secretive, they’re not going to open up easily. I’m not your shrink. I’m not getting paid to wait for you to have a breakthrough.

*They have disclaimers of any kind in their profile. – Nope. I’m not going to pay for the mistakes made by other people you’ve dated.

*They make you ask them for a photo of their face. – GTFO of here with that bullshit. No special snowflakes. Ever.

*They don’t text you after the date to say thank you. – Ru-hude! If you pay the bill and they don’t send you a thank you text or email, they’re suspect. You heard it here first. They’re abiding by some imaginary and outdated rule. Those people are exhausting.

*They show up to the date and order a soda or water while you have a cocktail. – I’ll get shit for this, but I’ll stand by it. Nobody likes to be the only person at the table drinking. Unless you’re in recovery or just don’t drink because you don’t like it, order a god damn drink and Sally Sip it if you must. Sitting there with a water just makes you look uptight. And passive aggressive. Personally, I won’t date non-drinkers because I like people who can kick back and have a couple of cocktails. YMMV on that one.

*They repeatedly ask you questions that make it clear they’re vetting you in some way. – If you’re someone who just can not bear to go on a  date with someone without knowing their last name or their occupation, do everybody a favor and stay home.  Maybe if you didn’t make the conversation feel like an interrogation, they’d answer your questions.

*They state in their profile on in their questions that they never have first date sex. – Really? Never? You’re a barrel of monkeys, aren’t you? People who answer yes letting you know that they don’t follow an arbitrary set of rules.That’s the take-away there. Either they want to show you how special and different they are or they have all kinds of rules about when they sleep with someone. Or they judge people for having sex on the first date. Nope to all three.

Anything else?




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80 Responses to “Don’t Be A Dating Don’t Bee”

  1. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    Yes, this story is a law school “issue spotting” exam with all the red flags being thrown.

    This one would have been easy for me. She makes you pick the place. But it’s a set up because she doesn’t drink so, wherever you picked, it would have been wrong. Cancel date immediately.

    This goes for people who are vegetarians, kosher, otherwise only eat certain kinds of food or drink certain types of wines or liquor or need a special caliber of venues. It’s totally fine if you’ve set up your life so rigidly that you will only be able to meet and eat at this one sushi restaurant for our date. Not my problem.

    If you’re this insufferable person, here’s what you can do: “Hi, since I don’t really drink (it’s cool that you do), I think we should go to this cool lounge I know where it’s quiet enough and they serve good small plates. They have a full bar. My treat, of course.”

    • KK Says:

      I don’t see why being vegetarian or keeping kosher means you live some super rigid life. I do think if you are like that then you should suggest an alternative, not ask the other person to make allowances for you

  2. John Says:

    *They don’t text you after the date to say thank you. – Ru-hude! If you pay the bill and they don’t send you a thank you text or email, they’re suspect. You heard it here first. They’re abiding by some imaginary and outdated rule. Those people are exhausting.

    This is a good one. A girl sending a thank you text afterwards is even better than a girl offering to help pay for the tab. When she does this, she goes up a few notches in my book. If she doesn’t, she slides a lot.

  3. ot Says:

    Avoid people that do not voluntarily share at least their first name within a few messages of initial contact.

    • Donnie K Says:

      “Avoid people that do not voluntarily share at least their first name within a few messages of initial contact.”

      I’ll do you one better. If they don’t offer their name by the second email/email reply, they’re suspect. Forgetting once is an honest mistake. A second time – you’re suspect.

      • Kyra Says:

        Or they have a forum background and are so used to chatting online that they forget.

        I mean, I have to consciously remember to give my name, but I don’t do it out of maliciousness, I’m just used to usernames.

      • HammersAndNails Says:

        That’s bizarre and arbitrary imho. If it works for you great, but I’ve certainly got other things to worry about. Obviously they will give you a name when you get the number and have the date set up.

        Hammers N. Nails

        • Donnie K Says:

          When I email a woman on a dating site, I sign my first name. If a woman emails me back, I expect her to to do the same. Guess what,?95% of the women who write back do this!…therefore, I don’t consider my expectation bizarre and arbitrary.

          Think about IRL situations – if you’re talking to a woman at a bar and she doesn’t give her first name unless you ask, odds are, shes not interested.

          Donnie K : )

          • BostonRobin Says:

            I stopped bothering with the “no-names.” They have NEVER turned out to be even close to normal. Never managed to meet a single one. No name in the first email, no reply from me.

            • fuzzilla Says:

              Huh. I’m with Kyra; I’m used to chatting online where you wouldn’t sign your name, so I just honestly forget. It’s not like I’m keeping my name some big secret. I guess it’s better to think of it as mingling with people at a cocktail party (in which case, of course you’d offer your name right away)? Well, not on the market right now, but I’ll file that away.

  4. HammersAndNails Says:

    Dude, she demanded phone calls, doesn’t drink, refused to pick the place… Why did you follow through? Was she spectacularly attractive compared to your normal pull or do you not have any pulls normally?

    This is the best she will ever get. Imagine the nightmare of actually dating such a pain in the ass.

  5. KK Says:

    I don’t know if the phone call thing is that bad. If someone won’t meet up unless there is a pre-date phone call, that seems a tad rigid, but for me, one quick phone call could have saved me a lot of grief. If a guy’s voice on the phone irritates me, then there is no point in meeting up. Same for him.

  6. fuzzilla Says:

    Ugh. I’ve had “friends” who pulled that shit on me (waited for me outside a venue and left fuming without bothering to check if I was inside or text/call me). Good riddance.

    I don’t insist on a phone call, but sometimes I do it to keep momentum going if we have to wait a week-ish to meet (people are busy and a lot of guys in my age range have child care stuff to arrange). Usually it’s their idea and I think, “Eh, sure, what the hell?” Maybe it’s different because I’m a woman dating men, but I’ve never gotten a sense of, “I absolutely will NOT meet you without a phone call…” It had the same gravitas as, “Hey, want a bottle of water? No? Okay, cool, see you Friday.”

    I am reluctant to give out personal contact info until after I’ve decided I want to meet him and we’ve set the date up. I don’t want them bombarding me with texting before the date. A brief text to say you’re running late or want to double check the bar’s address or whatever is fine – I mean, that’s what the info exchange is for.

  7. TallJen Says:

    Can I just leave a big “LIKE” for everything Moxie said here?

    Awesomeness. And SO true.

  8. Jacinta Says:

    Agree with everything except the phone call. Even a 5-minute conversation gives a better sense of a person’s personality than text or email could ever do.

    • Joey Giraud Says:

      Yeah, like whether they have a voice like Peter Lorre or Ruth Buzzi.

      • Noquay Says:

        Agreed. I’ve weeded out some weirdos with a phone call. When dating requires often a 50+ mile drive to meet half way, tis important. Folks often let their guard down a bit on the phone and their real selves start to come out.

    • BostonRobin Says:

      I use the phone call to set up the date so we don’t have to email back and forth, which drives me INSANE. I don’t drag out the conversation though, because to me, the phone is simply a means to facilitate an in-person conversation.

  9. jaclyn Says:

    In my experience, everyone is on their best behavior at the start of a relationship. If this woman couldn’t be bothered to text you when she couldn’t find you, then she’s either crazy or incredibly difficult. It doesn’t matter which – you are a lot better off without her.

  10. Kyra Says:

    I think you’re really on the mark with this one, Moxie but I do have one thing to note.

    I’m a person who won’t have sex on the first date. I don’t judge anyone for it, and I don’t have arbitrary rules. I think as long as people are being safe and consensual and are happy, the sex they have is none of my business.

    But I need to get to know someone and feel comfortable with them before I have sex, there needs to be some trust there before I’ll go below the waist. I’m not trying to be a special snowflake or give any guys blue balls or be difficult, it’s just the way I am.

  11. Mark Says:

    Deliusfan (the LW)

    Seems to me that you really didn’t do anything wrong on your end. It seemed like you were making a good faith effort without coming across as overly doing it. Not only did you do what a reasonable person could/would do, but your reasons for doing so seem perfectly appropriate.

    She flaked out, not you. She was livid? You gotta be kidding. Why on earth would she feel that way. Probably a good thing that this happened to you early and not later.

    Not sure that I agree with Moxie’s bright line rule about the phone issue. However, if there is a phone conversation keep it relatively short. You want to meet, not have a telephone buddy. It does strange things to expectations if/when you finally meet. But the rest of her advice is really worth considering to weed out time wasters.

    Keep at it and I’m sure that you will do well.

    Best of luck and hope things improve.

  12. Camie Says:

    I can’t drink for medical reasons. Is it that big of a deal to not drink alcohol? I still like the social atmosphere and feel comfortable when other people are drinking.

    • fuzzilla Says:

      I prefer someone I can share a cocktail with. The behavior surrounding the lack of drinking can be a definite turnoff, such as lecturing me about how I’m poisoning my body or being a dry drunk (yeah, congrats on that A.A. chip, but you’re still an angry asshole and haven’t dealt with any of the underlying issues that caused you to get out of control. In fact, you’re even more unbearable with your coping mechanism taken away. No offense to non-asshole A.A. members).

      Other than that, no, it’s not that big a deal. My current boyfriend drinks only very occasionally because it tends to upset his stomach post surgery. I think I do consequently drink less around him since it’s likely not a shared activity, but I don’t think he’d care one way or the other if I wanted to grab some beer or a Jack & Coke or whatever.

    • Nicole Says:

      I don’t think its that big a deal in most long term relationships but it can be awkward in the early stages of dating if one person drinks and the other doesn’t. If I don’t know someones reasons for not drinking I usually try to avoid drinking around them or suggesting any place that is booze-centric, because I do know some folks in recovery who are super uncomfortable around alcohol.

      There’s also the money issue – 2 cocktails can add $20 to the tab and I’d feel pretty bad about a guy paying for that if he was drinking soda. So it puts you in the awkward position of feeling like you always have to split checks – and not even 50/50, but by breaking down who ordered what.

      It’s not so much the not drinking itself as the confusion over how to politely handle the situation that makes things uncomfortable sometimes.

  13. Selena Says:

    I’m wondering if this woman felt uncomfortable about walking into a bar by herself. I’ve felt that way at times and had to squelch my anxiety and just do it.

    It was totally unreasonable for her to expect her date to be waiting for her outside in the cold. Why not just call him from the car to see if he was there? He could have met her at the door.

    Driving off in a huff without a word may indicate she wasn’t all excited about the date to begin with and she gave herself an excuse to chicken out.

    Agree with Moxie about shooting off a “I’m inside” text. A nice gesture.

    • HammersAndNails Says:

      Do you have some sort of agoraphobia or something? In what mindset is walking into a bar difficult. I really don’t get it. How could any place be easier?

      • Kyra Says:

        I’ve been very uncomfortable in bars on my own before, when I’ve arrived early. Some people don’t have boundaries and the harrassment made me feel really squeamish a few times – albeit not enough to not walk in alone.

      • Selena Says:

        I suppose it’s because I always went to bars with someone else – friends, a boyfriend. I was in my 40’s the first time I went to a bar by myself. I’d do it from time to time because I just wanted to get out of the house and have a glass of wine. Can’t say it ever became comfortable for me though, which made me wonder about the woman in the letter.

        In her case however, she was meeting someone. Why she wouldn’t open the door to see if he was there I can’t imagine. Not even calling him before driving away strikes me as incredibly rude.

    • ATWYSingle Says:

      She was looking for an excuse to leave and he gave it to her by waiting inside.

      And, sorry all you speshul snowflakes who can’t stand in a bar by yourself for fear some boogeyman is going to harass need to get a grip.

      Holy fuck, I feel like I’m reading comments on xoJane.

      • maria Says:

        yeah, really. what kind of bars are you going to where you can’t even stay inside for a few minutes without being “harassed” sometimes I wonder just what men have to deal with.

        you are better than me because, I think she actually just never showed up, or maybe she showed up, saw him and left. Nobody who goes out of their way to go on a date would just drive away without a phone call or a text. its very suspicious to me.

  14. AAORK Says:

    The “won’t meet you half way” is the biggest issue for me. I’ve encountered far too many women who scoff at the idea of traveling (much less dating) outside of their own zip code. The second biggest issue is no ‘thank you’ text (or really ANY expression of appreciation) after the date. I suspect these are also the type of people who then constantly say “Where are all the good ..”. Sounds like this guy side-stepped a minefield of entitlement. He would be smart to absorb the lesson, learn from it, and move on to greener pastures.

    • deliusfan Says:

      AAORK, you nailed it; her profile actually has a variation on the theme of “Where are all the good…” in the very first sentence, no less.

  15. TB Says:

    “The second biggest issue is no ‘thank you’ text (or really ANY expression of appreciation) after the date”

    In a little bit of over a dozen first dates, a thank you has been very rare. Twice. Is this a regional thing?

    • Selena Says:

      What region are you in? I’m from Ohio and spent decades in FL. Thanking someone at the table and again at parting is automatic.

      • TB Says:

        New England.

        I should back off. That was two texts. Coincidentally they were from women that I didn’t have immediate chemistry with. There were probably a few more that were said reflexively, in a way or tone that I didn’t take note of, at the end of dinner, or the way out the door.

        However, after thinking about it, it doesn’t bother me that I wasn’t thanked in a grateful tone. These woman are paying for a sitter. They’re only getting $30 to 40 worth. And our incomes are often asymmetrical, so no big deal.

        And when things have gotten to the third or fourth date, I usually do get a meaningful look in the eyes, and thank-you. And that I truly appreciate.

    • maria Says:

      that’s crazy. i have been on many many dates and I ALWAYS send a thank you or I had a nice time text. Most of the time I don’t think the guy gives a shit either way, but I make sure to always do it, mostly for myself if the guy didn’t seem interested/I wasn’t interested because its the nice and polite thing to do. If we split everything 50/50 though, I’ll just text that I had a nice time. If they pay, like them or not, I send out a thank you text. I am surprised more women don’t do this.

    • AAORK Says:

      It’s not a regional thing; it’s a personal character thing. And it hints at a sense of entitlement – a trait all too common these days. :(

  16. Yvonne Says:

    Many good points on this list, although I don’t agree with everything. As far as the phone conversation goes, while it’s not mandatory for me, I think you can get a lot of information from listening to a person speak that you can’t get through written interaction. I’m not talking about the quality of their voice, but more about how intelligent and articulate they are, whether or not they talk on and on about themselves, are rude, etc.

    The phone conversation can also tell you how interested a person is in actually meeting you. In the OP’s case, I wonder if this woman’s reluctance to pick a venue was really a reluctance to meet HIM? If a man is willing to come to my area to meet me, why wouldn’t I pick a spot, especially if I have a restriction about drinking?

    I’m also not convinced that a thank you text after the date is mandatory if a woman expresses sincere thanks at the end of the date, as well as a desire to see the other person again. Note that several dating advisers I’ve read advise suggest thanking a man at the end of the date only. I know I’ve thanked a man at the date’s end, and then later sent a thank-you text only to be met with radio silence, so it works both ways.

    As far as the OP’s situation goes, it really doesn’t sound as though this woman was all that interested in meeting him. What is wrong with texting unless you don’t have a smart phone? And why wouldn’t she have entered the venue, especially since it’s winter and cold? Since she didn’t make that much of an effort, why was she so angry? If you are wondering where all the good men are, maybe you’re not expecting to actually meet one?

    • ATWYSingle Says:

      “Note that several dating advisers I’ve read advise suggest thanking a man at the end of the date only.”

      We’ve had this conversation before. Besides just being a nice gesture, sending a thank you text or email is proper etiquette. Those dating advisers are giving very bad advice if they’re telling women not to send that Thank You.

      • Rosie Says:

        My thinking is that I’d rather “overdo it” (thank him at the date’s end and then a short text after) than come across as an entitled, ungrateful person.

    • deliusfan Says:

      The fact that I had not one, but two phone conversations that lasted probably 1.5 hrs total made me think we were on. I even tried to cut the conversations shorter, but she tarried. Ah, well; perhaps she just really likes talking on the phone?

  17. D. Says:

    I had something like this happen once. I’d arranged to meet my date at a bar, and was waiting outside. No sign of her for about 15 min, so I poked my head inside quickly and didn’t see her. Just some big burly dudes sitting at the bar. Went back outside and waited another 5 min and then texted her to find out if she was on her way. Turned out she was inside, and was actually blocked from my view by said big burly dudes. After that, the date went fine.

    My point in this story is, if someone isn’t either a total lunatic or completely burnt out on dating, that’s probably how they’d handle this situation. You reach out and find out what the story is before bailing.

    My guess is that she was already on edge, defensive, or otherwise in a shitty frame of mind about dating when this happened, and it has more to do with her than to do with the OP. I’d chalk it up as a decent “bad date” story, and go on as before — but with the benefit of wisdom from experience and the knowledge of how to spot signs that someone may end up being difficult in the future.

    • Yvonne Says:

      Three similar scenarios have happened to me. On one of them, the guy freaked out and yelled at me. I should have seen it for the red flag it was, since the guy turned out to be entitled, but insecure, and not nice. Missed connections happen, and reasonable people understand that.

  18. Debbie Says:

    Uncomfortable walking into bars alone? Yeah OK … biker bars/dives – of course! But this was a carefully chosen wine bar/Tapas place!

    Swoon! Someone might – GASP – think you are meeting an online date there! or are a ‘woman without a manz!’ In the very early evening no less – she never met friends after work/weekends and walked in alone?

    Only thing I like about seeing how bizarre some women behave is that makes the guys I meet glad to see how adults behave.

    • jane Says:

      I can’t explain her lack of a text, but I do know I feel uncomfortable trying to locate someone in a bar or restaurant and strongly prefer to meet outside. If I’m meeting someone I don’t know, it’s really awkward wandering around a restaurant trying to locate the person who may resemble the few pictures you’ve seen online. I really hate that!

  19. maria Says:

    wow how rude of her. but the cynical side of me thinks she either didn’t stop to look for you at all because she really didn’t feel like going on this date, or she didn’t actually show up to the date at all and pulled this to avoid looking like the jerk that she is.

    I cannot fathom how a thing like this could happen. while I am on my way, if I am a few minutes late, I text them that I’ll be there in a few minutes and wait to see what they say. Same goes if I am early. i’ll shoot a text that says I am early, and tell them what I am wearing and where I will be–if its a nice day, I wait outside. if its cold, I’ll wait inside, its really not a big deal. I get the mild anxiety that comes with waiting inside a bar alone but I deal with it or I just wait outside and tell the person I am meeting I will be inside. I just think she didn’t want to go on the date and made this whole thing up. You mean to tell me she does this while meeting friends too? this is the way things are now, even my parents text when we are meeting to tell us where they will be. I call bullshit, and you should be happy to be rid of her. PLEASE don’t tell me you asked to reschedule. Just drop this one and move on.

  20. Debbie Says:

    Sorry – that’s just way too TMI for me … text if you are early, text what you are wearing, text where you are sitting (unless it is crazy crowded!) Text if you are running late – of course – that is civilized.

    Otherwise – we will recognize each other because our photos are current – right? :)

    Talked to a work colleague about online dating in general and he says his friends’ biggest complaint is that women text too much! This is, however, 40s and older guys, so YMMV …

    • Eliza Says:

      HI Debbie–hate to disagree-but men ALSO love to text non-stop…and frankly, some of us are busy at work, and can’t be going back and forth – moreso prior to meeting…what’s the point. JUST MEET. That simple. A few email exchanges, off the site too is fine. one phone call…set the date, and on your way there – just confirm you are heading over. It’s not rocket science…why do people make it so damn complicated? It’s cold? Well, duh, the person is probably inside…just go in – take a quick look around, and then text – “hey, here where are you”? You don’t need some idiot who is going to make a mountain out of a tiny little molehill. Don’t drink? OK–order something non-alcoholic and call it a day. Too afraid to give out your real first name only? You need years of therapy…next.
      You are meeting someone in a public place, not some dark alley at 2am.

  21. Natalie Says:

    I always thank the person at the end of the outing (regardless of who paid). Never sent a thank you text message because I always assumed the in-person thank you was thank you enough. after reading the comments here, it seems that others think differently, which is good to know!

    • Donnie K Says:

      I see Moxie’s point and yours as well. If a woman’s not interested, a verbal thank you is sufficient. At the same time, she should also insist on paying her share – two birds, one stone.

  22. Michelle Says:

    You didn’t do anything wrong, she was an idiot, you always check inside or call/text the person to see if there are there. The only thing you could have done differently is call/ text when you got there that you were inside. Other than that all good.

    There were a ton of red flags though, I won’t have even made a date with her. You asked her to pick a place because you don’t know the area and she got pissed, move on!

    But I don’t agree with some of the things on the don’t be list
    I like at least one call before we meet. It has saved me several times, I’ve learned they are biggots, live at home with parents – never left, or just no personality at all. Saved an evening out
    I don’t give my number until we speak or meet because I have had stalkers from dating sites, guys calling me every 20 minutes or at ungodly hours even if I’ve told them I wasn’t interested and my safety comes 1st. For me any guy who can’t understand that it’s for my safety isn’t for me.

    I think meeting closer to where the girl is, is polite and the right thing to do, again you read every day about women missing after a date, I don’t want to be on a milk carton. But if you are in the city then someplace in the middle for all is cool. But I get guys suggesting a restaurant next to their office or home so I travel and they don’t. Not cool, shows me you are selfish.

    I don’t always drink on a date, sometimes I have to work when I get home or am just not in the mood for alcohol, no big deal.

    • Donnie K Says:

      Truth be told, with the exception of your opening paragraph, you sound paranoid, difficult, and a bit lame. Case in point:

      “I like at least one call before we meet. It has saved me several times, I’ve learned they are biggots, live at home with parents – never left, or just no personality at all. Saved an evening out.”

      With all due respect, that’s on you for not being able to spot these losers prior to exchanging emails with them. Often there are tell tale signs with these folks.

      “I don’t give my number until we speak or meet because I have had stalkers from dating sites, guys calling me every 20 minutes or at ungodly hours even if I’ve told them I wasn’t interested and my safety comes 1st. For me any guy who can’t understand that it’s for my safety isn’t for me.”

      Same as the above. The weirdos – both male and female have a a way of showing their cards before things get this far. Sounds like your picker may need some tuning.

      “I think meeting closer to where the girl is, is polite and the right thing to do, again you read every day about women missing after a date, I don’t want to be on a milk carton.”

      Someone has seen too many Criminal Minds episodes.Granted, women generally have to be more cautious than men, but you sound like one of those folks who believe that there’s a serial killer and sex offender behind every tree. Watch less TV.

      As for this:

      “I don’t always drink on a date, sometimes I have to work when I get home or am just not in the mood for alcohol, no big deal.”

      Yes it is. Agreeing to meet someone for a drink implies you’re both going to…. have a drink. Unless you have some health related issue that requires abstaining from alcohol, suck it up and have a cocktail. By refusing to do so, you’re setting a negative tone for the date.

    • Rosie Says:

      Maria, but wouldn’t you want to meet someone away from your home. You know, in case they turn out to be a stalker, they don’t have your approximate living area? Just sayin!

      Call me naive, but I can’t stress so much about a first date to think that every guy might be a stalker.

    • HammersAndNails Says:

      You are seriously going to trot out the safety card for all that nonsense?

      No, a woman does not go missing every day after a date. It’s exceedingly rare.

    • ATWYSingle Says:

      “you read every day about women missing after a date, I don’t want to be on a milk carton.”

      This is wildly, unabashedly untrue. You have to be seriously mentally ill to believe this is true. Stop making shit up to justify why you demand guys treat you like a pretty, pretty princess. You make us all look bad.

    • Kyra Says:

      You don’t have to be afraid or suspicious when you’re meeting someone for the first time, as long as you’re careful. *Careful is not the same as paranoid.

      Meet in a public place, tell someone you trust where you’ll be and who you’re meeting. Park in a well lit area.

      Truly, most people aren’t serial killers, just trust your instincts and date smart.

  23. TB Says:

    “Unless you have some health related issue that requires abstaining from alcohol, suck it up and have a cocktail. By refusing to do so, you’re setting a negative tone for the date.”

    This has been the case for me. My rule of thumb is that if a woman doesn’t order a drink, she’s just not interested.

    • The D-man Says:

      She may be a closet alcoholic. A lot of people in recovery don’t like to disclose it right away.

      • Donnie K Says:

        Then only accept dates from non drinkers. Better yet put “not at all” under drinking. You’ll get less dates but odds are you’ll increase the likelyhood of finding someone compatible.

      • HammersAndNails Says:

        Maybe that’s true, but it’s not cool. I enjoy drinking. It’s a waste of both of our time to date people who do not enjoy getting a bit loose

    • Selena Says:

      Just to say, I know people who enjoy alcohol but will not drink at all if they have to drive afterward.

      • Donnie K Says:

        That should be established beforehand, not during the date.

        • bbdawg Says:

          Actually, as someone who genuinely doesn’t enjoy alcohol that much (2 drinks max) who doesn’t drink beer ever, I try to be upfront about that on dating profiles…I am not compatible with a man who loves going to bars. Nothing wrong with drinking, just not my thing. I learnt to be more upfront after going on dates with men who drank a lot, I can’t do it. After 2 drinks I am done and I want to leave.

          • Yvonne Says:

            I think that’s considered “social drinking”.

            • HammersAndNails Says:

              Social drinkers enjoy drinking. She does not. She’s a great example of how those who don’t enjoy drinking can order a glass off wine or two to avoid making life difficult/awkward, but, even by her own admission, drinking isn’t her thing.

  24. Lucy Says:

    I’m still on the fence with the phone call stuff but now I actually understand what Moxie is getting at because I tried it out.

    I’ve screened with a Skype call once. I discovered in the phone call that I didn’t want to meet after all as he ended talking a lot about his ex girlfriend and the child they had together and a bit about custody disputes and it sort of made me think he wasn’t really focussed on meeting someone new. I felt bad afterwards as the guy felt that the call was effort on his part so felt a little aggrieved that it never turned into a date.

    Then another guy – we can talk for hours on the phone but we met up, we just ran out of stuff to talk about. It’s strange when you can talk a lot on the phone but not so much in person.

    So now I’m confused but I don’t do phone calls prior to the date anymore as I like the mystery of what he might sound like and how he comes across. I also feel uncomfortable about the idea of getting someone to jump through hoops just to meet me. However if the guy introduced the idea of talking on the phone (after it’s clear we are going to meet up) then I wouldn’t mind.

    I get some messages on OD from guys saying “Here’s my number 078—. Call me”. Weird.

    • HammersAndNails Says:

      not trying to say this is necessarily the case, but if a girl isn’t as attractive as I was anticipating/expecting the level of effort I put into being charming drops pretty dramatically.

      • Lucy Says:

        hm that’s an interesting point. I hope I look enough like my pictures. I don’t photoshop but I use the most flattering ones.

        • Lucy Says:

          @H+N – I asked the dude and he said he can see me in my main pic but that the others ‘look more like you’. Maybe he was just being polite. But when I met him, I expected him to look different too based on his pictures. No I guess neither of us fancy each other…I don’t know if we’ll meet again.

          I think I’m going to ask my female (and male) friends to give me the low down on which of my pics represent me in the best light. This a topic for another thread but I wonder about Moxie’s view on pics?

  25. AC Says:

    Once again, I’m arriving late to the party. Normally I’d let this issue go, but because I’ve commented to often on it and I’ve had time to digest all point of view, I think the phone call debate can be broken down into a few main points:

    There’s nothing wrong with wanting to chat with someone over the phone before a date. The problem is some people are not comfortable over the phone. Both sides need to respect the others feelings and understand the other sides point of view.

    Phone people tend to feel more comfortable if they’ve heard the other person’s voice prior to meeting them. Sometime’s a brief chat can save the trouble of a bad date. Those who don’t like the phone are quick to point out that phone conversations wit strangers tend to be awkward and that opening up on person is much easier. After all body language is part of communication.

    You won’t know if there’s chemistry until you meet the person.

    What Moxie has been saying all along is that people to REQUIRE a phone conversation prior to meeting should be avoided because it’s a shit test – a hoop to jump through.

    Something else – we’ve been through the game of phone tag. Is it worth delaying a date over a phone conversation that may or may not mean anything?

    • bbdawg Says:

      I still do not understand the point of a phone call. I mean no matter what you’re going to talk about, nothing , NOTHING is going to predict what it’s like meeting someone in person.

      At this point I have accepted that online dating is like going on pre-selected blind dates. You just can’t build expectations, or expect anyone to meet lofty goals. If you have requirements/concerns just ASK you don’t need the phone.

      For online ppl, I only meet within a 5-20 min walking distance from where I live. I make very little effort. IF I had kids and/or lived in the suburbs or had to commute to meet people I might have used this phone call thing but I just don’t see the point of it. If you have done online dating for about 6 months you can already get a gist of what a person will be like. You just CANNOT predict if someone is your future whatever, or what someone is like, from a phone call. That is so ridiculous. It’s insane.

      Online dating is almost like a game of unknown cards that you flip up once you meet people. You can be diligent but you can’t take it THAT seriously.

      • AC Says:

        “NOTHING is going to predict what it’s like meeting someone in person.”

        EXACTLY – emails, text, phone calls – all are meaningless when it comes to determining chemistry.

        IMO, the “I need a phone call” attitude stems back to the early days of online dating. Go back to 2000-2005. Online dating was still pretty new. So was texting. The idea of meeting a stranger wasn’t as common, so the phone became that intermediary step. Let’s face it, right or wrong, online dating still had a bit of a stigma back then.

        Flash-forward to 2015. I’ll go out on a limb and say that for anyone over the age of 35, online dating IS the norm. What else is there?

        Speed-dating? I never liked it the few times I tried it but apparently it’s still popular. Same idea as online dating, different format. I see little difference.

        Singles parties for ATWYS members. Haven’t been to one since the “Lock and Key” days so I can’t say whether or not these work. Like speed-dating, these seem more geared towards Manhattan resident (I couldn’t be wrong here.)

        Friends of friends? Crapshoot.

        Meetup groups? Does anyone actually mean anyone for dating purposes through these?

        Bars? People go to hang out with there friends.

        That said, anyone who think’s that online dating is for “losers” or “desperate people” comes across as a social dinosaur.

        With the exception of someone living in a rural area (for reasons you mention) the same goes for anyone who requires a phone call.

      • Matt Says:

        You need to take it seriously, at least if you’re a guy, considering the sheer amount of time and effort you have to spend sending out messages before you get a response. Because it’s not like the site itself is terribly entertaining while you’re sending out dozens of messages a day with little to no response.

  26. PGH_Gal Says:

    This post is all of the things. I think when you first start online dating you are super earnest and assume everyone else is as well. Wrong! LOL. Watching a show like Catfish would actually be a good study in red flags for new daters…or just read this post. Moxie hit them all on the head.

    There’s also something to be said for trusting your gut. There’s a huge difference between being nervous and your entire being screaming “this person sucks!” Paying attention to that will save you a lot of time and energy.

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