What Happened To All The Alpha Males?

Alias (DO NOT USE A REAL NAME!!): arabellasack-up-and-be-a-man
:
Comment: I met a guy from pof.com. After the 1st date, he texted to say that he would like the opportunity to get to know me. I told him “sure that sounds great.” Later that evening, he texted to ask if he could call me at 10pm. I was on a date with someone else so i texted the next morning “sorry. I fell asleep.” He has texted 2 or 3 times since to wish me a happy day. Should i stop responding since he isnt asking me out?  Whats with guys who do nothing but text photos of flowers and ask permission to call? What happened to men who just call and ask u out?
Age: 40
City: new york
State: new york

 

First things first: get off Plenty Of Fish. That site is a garbage pail full of cast offs and rejects.

Since I don’t know how you are responding to these guys, I can’t say for certain why this guy isn’t asking you for another date. It sounds like he’s looking for a sign from you that you would actually say yes. So give it to him. Just ask him out. Don’t sit on principle and wait for him to make the move, especially if you’re not giving him any indication you actually like him. It works both ways, this dating thing. If I sent someone a text asking if I could call them that evening and they replied the next morning with, “Sorry. Fell asleep” and nothing more, I’d delete their number. That response was dismissive and rude.

RUDE!

What you should say in a situation like that is, “Sorry, I just got this. Can we talk tonight?” These early conversations are volleys of affection and interest. If he shows interest, you return it. Simple, really, yet so many people don’t seem to get that.

Judging by some of your comments on this post, I get the feeling that you want a man who will take the lead. If he’s not completely confident and assertive from the start, you deem him wishy washy and say he has “feminine” energy. Because to be feminine means to be submissive and weak, amirite? You recently said:

Both male and female energy are equal and have their strengths but they are different strengths. A woman will never be a man do why try? Let the man be the male energy. Relationships flow smoothly that way. I would rather be alone then be in a relationTship with a man who is ambivalent about me and does not express how much he loves and cherishes me

Your blatant internalized misogyny aside, your bigger problem is that you don’t seem to like to give an inch until the man proves to you how into you he is after one date. That’s the challenge here for you. You want a guy who meets you once and decides he must scale mountains to have you.

Those days are gone. They went the way of the flip phone. Men calling women and asking them out is not a thing anymore. Now, men and women are usually juggling one or two or three suitors at a time while maintaining accounts on various online dating platforms. Another shift in the paradigm is that women are now having to shake loose all those rules and behaviors they’ve been conditioned with since birth and, for lack of a better term, sack up. That includes you.

Needing everything to be set in stone and requiring that the guy do all the heavy lifting and confirm the date and make the plans and follow up is absurd at this stage of the game. Online dating – dating, really – is played pretty fast and loose these days. Rigidity is was killed the dinosaurs.

Judging by the number of women OUTRAGED that the guy from this post used the phrase “let’s pencil it in” when setting a date, it’s clear that a lot of women feel totally comfortable relieving themselves of all their agency when it comes to romantic interactions. Rather than seek clarity themselves, they wait for the man to do it. Again we have an example of something that is considered unthinkable in another other aspect of our life except when it comes to dating. Time to stop with that shit.

As I said to you in a recent comment, I side-eye women who talk of wanting an “Alpha Male.” I absolutely understand preferring a man who is proactive and confident, but the term “Alpha Male” is an outdated one. Those men, the Gordon Gecco/Don Draper types who go after what they want with no apologies don’t really exist anymore. Masculinity (and Femininity) are changing. Traits that were once widely considered to be assigned to one gender or the other are becoming interchangeable. Clinging to antiquated gender roles and perceptions will do you no good.

So, you might just have to lower your expectations a bit and get comfortable with doing some of the work.

 

 

Thoughts?

Sometimes the love of your life is the love of your life. (R)

@ATWYSingle

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77 Responses to “What Happened To All The Alpha Males?”

  1. uesider Says:

    A true “alpha male” isn’t wasting time contacting 40-year-old women on PlentyOfFish.

    Get over yourself sweetie, maybe start treating these guys like, oh I don’t know, human beings and you won’t need to write to Moxie hoping for validation.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 47 Thumb down 24

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    • arabella Says:

      Doing any work at all during the first 6 dates would be settling for less than I deserve. No thanks!

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 6 Thumb down 56

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      • JulesP Says:

        I haven’t liked or disliked what you write here… simply writing to tell you I don’t get it! Why is doing any work on the first 6 dates considered by you to be “less than you deserve”? What exactly do you reckon you deserve? I’m assuming that one of those things may be respect and another may even be communication. Are you giving these things too? Or is this what you generally consider to be “settling for less than you deserve?

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          As I said below, she’s obviously a troll looking for attention. Please stop addressing her.

          Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

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        • arabella Says:

          No i am not a troll
          I feel I deserve to be treated like a lady. That is why I won’t settle for behavior that doesn’t make me feel cherished and loved. What makes me feel cherished and loved is a man who wants me to feel secure in his intentions. He does that by consistently paying attention to details on dates, planning dates and in between dates

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          • Bethany Says:

            A man who doesn’t even know you yet(!) isn’t going to make you feel cherished and loved. That’s a fair expectation after you’ve been dating for a while but completely outrageous in the beginning.

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            • Rosie Says:

              In a previous post she said the guy has to be in love with her on the first date.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

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          • KK Says:

            I completely understand wanting to feel cherished by someone. But that takes time. I mean, a guy cherishes someone because he knows that woman and he cherishes her. Not, “she’ a woman, therefore I cherish her.” Also, it’s not a one-way street. A guy will cherish you because you adore him. And you adore him because he makes you fee amazing. It goes both ways and it requires both of you knowing each other.

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          • Joey Giraud Says:

            “I feel I deserve to be treated like a lady.”

            I’m old fashioned enough to understand what you mean.

            People here interpret this to mean you’re overly entitled, perhaps a bit snotty and conceited.

            I interpret this to mean that being treated well and having the man make certain decisions and be reliable and dependable is what turns you on, or gives you a “lady boner.” ( a popular phrase here, and not one I care for at all ) A turn off is a turn off, no matter the reason.

            ————————

            Oofda; what I’m saying here almost totally contradicts what I wrote just below on June 30th.

            Maybe I’m understanding women too well. Took me long enough.

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            • Lucy Says:

              I can see what that’s getting at too. Wanting to feel cherished and loved straight away could come from feeling deceived in previous relationships where the guy may have taken you along for the ride. I have felt like this before and really wanted to feel that I’d meet someone who was really into me straight away so I could feel secure. But this is really not something to expect from a guy and expecting that could mean missing out on someone decent. And I have learnt that the guys who seemed into me straight away were sometimes the ones who were completely wrong for me. So on to other means of judging a man’s interest…

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      • Rosie Says:

        Wow!

        Arabella, have you ever been married? Engaged? In a long-term relationship? What do you base these rules you have of what relationships should be like? Not judging. I just want to know where you’re coming from.
        I’m 38 (so we’re close in age), but my ideas of dating are completely different than yours. If anything I’m too laid back.

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

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      • Isambard Says:

        Wow! Can I have your number?

        I guess the sex will be really boring for the first six dates though…

        Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

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  2. Joey Giraud Says:

    I think women who expect men to show strong desire and make a significant up-front effort are in fact terrified of rejection.

    As far as the “Alpha Male” goes ( so sick of that tired trope, ) read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/06/opinion/tapping-your-inner-wolf.html?_r=0

    Real world dominant males are actually pretty chill.

    Well-loved. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 1

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    • SS Says:

      Ooh love that – thanks for sharing.

      Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

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    • arabella Says:

      When men show strong desire from the outset, its because they are “in” to you. Why settle for a man who is lukewarm when you can be with a guy who loves and cherishes you and tells you so. Its possible.

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      • Joey Giraud Says:

        See my response above.

        Recently fell in love with a reasonably feminist woman, but for the first time I’m not falling into the trap of behaving weakly for the sake of avoiding conflict. Maybe because she’s not so strident, maybe because she’s a little old-fashioned too, can’t say exactly, but it’s working great.

        I don’t boss her around, I don’t puff up and act all “let me tell you this about that, little lady.” But I’m not deferring to her all the time, not worrying that my being decisive, definitive, clear and unapologetic about it will offend her. And she’s happier with me every passing week.

        My point for you is that I suspect a lot of modern men suffer the same difficulties I’ve had in many relationships. It’s all good that women want equality, but how do we ( older ) men change our behavior to match? It’s simple to admonish men to respect women’s wishes, to celebrate autonomy and all that. That stuff works fine in a platonic relationships. But how to behave like a man and at the same time accommodate feminist principles, that’s not easy.

        It’s taken me 30 years to figure it out, and I’m pretty bright.

        IOW, give these men a break. The rules are changing, and they don’t necessarily know how best to adapt.

        And I think the “Alpha Male” framing that Moxie applied in the title to your letter isn’t helpful. Distracting.

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        • Lucy Says:

          It’s hard because every woman is different. Men may feel that they should behave more in one way than another due to their own particular dating experiences. Something may offend one woman but be appealing to another.

          And it’s taken some time for me to realise that I can fall for an absolute charmer and think I’m getting special treatment because he’s into me but it’s what he does with every woman anyway. Sometimes the wrong kind of guy can give flawless first impressions.

          Wouldn’t it be better to have a guy with a lot less bravado but quiet confidence? And maybe this guy will not be flawless. Personally I’m tired of looking for flawless ‘sweep me off my feet’ guys ’cause that gets me the superficial ones. Could be that a guy is acting more tentatively because he is indeed into you but is figuring out how you want to be treated. That seems lovely to me.

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          • Joey Giraud Says:

            Right on, Lucy.

            And it’s funny you wrote that, it’s exactly what I’ve been trying to do to show her how I feel: say less and do more.

            Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

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        • KK Says:

          Hold on. Are you 30 and considering yourself an older man? Or are you talking about 30 years since you’ve started dating? Either way, you are pretty damn young. Anyway, the guy I’m dating is 34 and while I am a feminist he…isn’t. He treats all the women in his life with respect, which is the main thing. I think being decisive is an attractive trait in men and women, though the ability to listen to others is just as important.

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      • Isambard Says:

        When men show strong desire from the outset they want sex.

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  3. SS Says:

    I agree with the OP that men should be more direct in general. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. Women too.

    However, I too recoil with horror at the term “alpha” whether used by men or women.

    Who on earth gets to decide whether someone is above another person? I personally believe a man with a sweet heart is head and shoulders above any man with x degree. That’s *my* measuring stick. So IMO the alpha measuring stick/term is utter BS, and generally used by people with self esteem issues.

    That aside, I was one of the people “OUTRAGED” (lol) by the pencilled in comment. Yes I would be offended by that. I would be offended by a friend using it, and I’d find it even worse if used by a random stranger. It’s just rude and totally unnecessary. Why even meet me if it’s such a goddamn chore? Because using that term comes across as if it IS a chore.

    In addition, I’ve read many of your previous posts and you’ve said yourself that no one should allude to their other dates/dating etc. To me, “pencil you in” is tantamount to saying that he is just soooo busy with other dates.

    One of my many favorite sayings is: “I may not be your first choice, but I’m nobody’s second choice.”

    1 Chore + 2 Choice = 3 Women Bail

    It’s simple math :)

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      **That aside, I was one of the people “OUTRAGED” (lol) by the pencilled in comment.**

      I wasn’t OUTRAGED by the comment, but yes, it turned me off. I wouldn’t cancel on someone solely based on that, but it would be A Thing I Would Note in sizing up some Internet dude I barely knew. I’d hope it wasn’t part of a larger pattern of flakiness/lack of interest.

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      • SS Says:

        I’d hope so too, but it would be red flag #1 and as an interaction that early in the game…. ehhhhhh

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      • Greg Says:

        Would you rather “Let’s etch it in stone.”. That sounds much creepier!

        Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

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    • Andrea Says:

      The hours at my job require me to either make plans boringly far in advance or firm things up with less than 24 hours notice. I have clients in several different time zones. Some days I’m out of the office by six, sometimes as late as nine. If one of them asks to push a conference call back an hour I don’t have the luxury of declining the reschedule. Not everybody works a typical nine to five or ten to six schedule.

      If men took my request to make tentative plans as personally as some of the women here do I would never get any dates.

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      • fuzzilla Says:

        If you have a hectic schedule you can still communicate that fact in a gracious and polite way. If I were in your shoes, I would (of course) prioritize work over a first date, yet I’d be bending over backwards to make it clear I was excited to meet the person, it’s just that work is soooo crazy, and offer alternative times to meet. And yes, some people will be too turned off by your unpredictable schedule to want to date you, especially if they have unpredictable schedules as well. Doesn’t make anyone a bad guy, just a matter of whether your lifestyles mesh or not.

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          I would (of course) prioritize work over a first date, yet I’d be bending over backwards to make it clear I was excited to meet the person

          Nobody should be bending over backwards to prove anything to someone they’ve never met. Maybe it’s because I live in Manhattan and am exposed to more people with hectic work schedules, or maybe I’m just a secure person who understands I’m not a priority to a virtual stranger, but I don’t blink an eye when someone says, “Okay, let’s pencil that in for Thursday and confirm Thursday morning.” Nor would I think twice about following up with a guy to see if we were still on if I hadn’t heard from him by an arbitrary time I decided was appropriate. I can see why it causes some women to get defensive and insecure, but that’s about them, not the guy.

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          • D. Says:

            Exactly. In the abstract “pencil you in” sounds like “we aren’t definite.” But taken as a whole and in context, the guy is clearly saying “We’ll go out on Thursday, barring anything unforeseen.” I’d be more inclined to look at that as an inartful turn of phrase, and nothing more. Likewise, nothing’s stopping this woman from reaching out to him and saying “Hey, just wanted to check — we still on?”

            The thing is, I think if she’d been genuinely interested…she’d have done that. This sort of thing doesn’t happen in friendships because friends are generally interested in spending time with each other and/or are secure enough in their friendship that they won’t immediately read the language as meaning something negative.

            That’s why I say that folks who are looking at this one thing in isolation as a reason to justify totally bailing on the other person (and apparently not telling them about it until the 11th hour) are basically conflicted about dating. When you approach dating with such a defensive attitude, you end up just getting in your own way.

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            • fuzzilla Says:

              **Likewise, nothing’s stopping this woman from reaching out to him and saying “Hey, just wanted to check — we still on?”

              The thing is, I think if she’d been genuinely interested…she’d have done that.**

              Exactly.

              Maybe “bend over backwards” was a poor choice of words and I should have said “make an effort to check in and sound genuinely interested.”

              As I said, I wouldn’t ditch a guy based solely on the “pencil in” comment.

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

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              • fuzzilla Says:

                I never told anybody to prioritize a near stranger over work, just to communicate clearly. If it were me saying I had to work late, I wouldn’t want the guy to think I was just feeding him some line, so I’d add, “Well, how about Sunday instead? Really looking forward to meeting you.” Since these are near strangers, they only have so much to go on to form an impression of you.

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            • BTownGirl Says:

              If I could upvote this 100 times, I would. Seriously, I would assume that we were on for Thursday assuming nothing comes up. I really couldn’t agree more that if someone is getting bent out of shape over something so innocuous, there’s a deeper issue. I mean, do y’all really want to date someone that would stew/get snippy instead of sending a text saying, “Hey! Are we still on for tonight?”

              Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

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            • ATWYSingle Says:

              The thing is, I think if she’d been genuinely interested…she’d have done that.

              I disagree. I think there are a lot of women who demand that a man make their intentions clear and known before they’ve even met them and who would sit back and use every little pre-date gesture possible as a litmus test. The women here pretending like they’ve never done that are completely full of shit. We’ve all done it in some fashion at one point or another. I can’t list how many blogs and articles I’ve read from women who pull this sort of thing strictly so they can go into a date feeling like some prize that was won.

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              • D. Says:

                That’s a fair point, actually. I’m sure there are some people out there who hold such attitudes, and it’s probably a pretty big source of frustration (whether the realize it or not) in their dating lives.

                Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

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              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                So, the point is that women are “genuinely interested” in a guy but are too rigid in their standards, so they “shoot themselves in the foot,” or “get in their own way,” etc.?

                That may very well be the case but there is no evidence of that phenomenon in this post, or in the previous one from the “pencil-in” guy. To the contray, Arabella here is over the moon about her date at the Water Club with a “man of means” (albiet obviously lacking in taste.). In the last post, while the guy certainly believes he is the catch of the century (and Moxie seemed to agree), we have abolsutely no idea whether the date-cancelling woman in that story is happy, unhappy or indifferent about the outcome.

                Without evidence of an unhappy person, it seems to me that you’re just assuming what you’re trying to prove.

                I routinely cancel dates, sometimes because the woman says something mostly innocuous in the pre-date texting that puts me off (“date upgrade” would be the common one as discussed here). These reasons would certainly seem arbitrary to some here. Am I being too rigid in the application of my standards? Am I “genuinely interested” in an otehrwise great match, and giving up some great opportuntiy for something silly? Says who? Who gets to decide??

                What you want to say, I think, is not that people are too “rigid” but that the standards that people apply do not seem logically tailored to achieve the outcome they say they seek. Arabella, for example, believes she can gague a man’s interest by the amount of money he spends on her – when, in reality, almost by definition, the “man of means” does not really care about money (he has much to waste) so blowing a ton of dough at some crappy tourist trap to impress her says nothing about his actual sincerity or interest. Show me a poor man that spends a lot on her, and I’d be more impressed. If you want to predict that Arabella will likely be screwed over six ways from Sunday using her standards, I’d tend to agree. But, it’s not because her standards are high or rigid – it’s because they make no sense.

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          • Lucy Says:

            Maybe an instance where you’d give the guy the benefit of the doubt and see how he is when you meet him rather than assuming the worst.

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    • Lucy Says:

      As an aside, beware of the man who calls himself ‘an alpha male’. If the guy really is alpha, no need to make an announcement about it. That kind of statement is a dead giveaway.

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  4. simple Says:

    Moxie, it’s interesting reading your admonishments how women are now empowered and should take charge. But the simple fact is they don’t and they won’t anytime soon. When I finally started aggressively leading, I finally started getting laid quite frequently.

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    • bbdawg Says:

      Moxie’s advice in terms of female “empowerment” i.e act like a man, taking charge, calling the shots and being very aggressive just isn’t very effective. “We are all equal” doesn’t work too well in dating.

      If it did there wouldn’t be so many hugely successful, interesting and intelligent take-charge single women. Meanwhile successful, take-charge and accomplished men are doing fine in dating, not just because there are fewer men than women, but because women gravitate towards the most “masculine” men and ignore the whiny dudes. I mean no matter how much “equality” people want to preach, opposites attract and equals repel each other. Yesterday’s “pencil me in” dude was rejected THREE TIMES according to his own admission.

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      • ATWYSingle Says:

        Moxie’s advice in terms of female “empowerment” i.e act like a man, taking charge, calling the shots and being very aggressive just isn’t very effective. “We are all equal” doesn’t work too well in dating.

        That’s actually not even close to what I said. I said women need to be more proactive and stop expecting men to do all the work. You interpreted my words the way you did because you, like the letter writer, still cling to outdated idea of what constitutes “masculine” and “feminine.” As the doofus above humblebragged, these so called assertive “alpha” dudes attract women who swoon over their assertive nature and usually end up sleeping with them quite effortlessly. And then guess what? Those guys disappear to find someone else. The “alpha” guys are screwing around to their heart’s content because they know so many women still favor that kind of cocky aggressive demeanor. So,refusing to put forth any real effort doesn’t seem to get women relationships. It gets them some dates, it gets them sex, but it never appears to garner them anything close to a serious relationship.

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        • SS Says:

          “As the doofus above humblebragged, these so called assertive “alpha” dudes attract women who swoon over their assertive nature”

          So called and self proclaimed, and precisely why I’m taking a LOOOOONG hiatus from online dating.

          Those guys were utterly repulsive.

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        • simple Says:

          As the doofus above humblebragged, these so called assertive “alpha” dudes attract women who swoon over their assertive nature

          Lol, thanks for the compliment.

          It’s reasonable to assume that the end game for a lot of men/women is sex. Otherwise, why bother? Having said that, waiting for the women to lead, or even to give me solid hints that she liked me almost never got me anywhere. And believe me, I tried everything to stay that way because it was comfortable. However, once I accepted full responsibility for taking charge and leading and embracing it, everything changed literally overnight. Perhaps you shouldn’t be blasting alpha doofuses, but rather the vast numbers of women who seem to like it.

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        • arabella Says:

          I don’t suggest sleeping with an alpha male without a committment. All i am saying is that the common man needs to man up and at least learn how to act like an alpha man while dating, which means
          A) be assertive and ask for a date
          B) be a man with a plan: communicate time, date, place.
          C) take the lead, which means don’t hang back. Take the lady’s hand lead to lead her across the street, order her meal for her, hold the door open for her and yes “pay her way”
          D)long story short: be the man

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      • arabella Says:

        I totally agree!

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    • arabella Says:

      Women asking men out undermines the challenge they need to pursue. Who wants a guy who is too insecure or shy to ask her out? When a woman asks a man out, she becomes the male energy. That can only work with a feminine energy guy. No thanks! I am the prize because i am the woman not the other way around.

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      • uesider Says:

        How about just acting like a normal human being instead of a “prize” that can be won by pushing the right buttons?

        Sooner or later he’s going to get tired of spending a lot of money on someone who insists on playing games. Do you have anything to offer him when that day comes?

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        • arabella Says:

          The real question is….what does any man have to offer a woman. It’s the man’s job to prove his love and win the woman’s heart. Not the other way around.

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          • Joey Giraud Says:

            Not that’s not even old fashioned, it’s just stupid.

            It’s never been a one way job. I mean *never*.

            It’s like you believe Disney movies are the way things used to be.

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    • arabella Says:

      Exactly..i like men who take the lead. It turns me on.

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    • arabella Says:

      Moxie might have penis envy unconsciously and not know it. Women who have penis envy are stuck at the toddler stage when tots first discover their genital differences. When i was 4 i tried to pee like my brother…
      standing over the toilet bowl but it didnt work. Thats when i realized that i wasnt a boy because i couldnt stand and pee without wetting myself.

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  5. Tadpole Says:

    Sometimes it just blows my mind how clueless some of these people can be. If I had asked about calling someone and I didn’t get an answer until the next day and that was the excuse, then I would think it was a blow off. Look people fall asleep sometimes, so that wouldn’t be a big deal once you’re in a relationship, but after one date, it just sounds like someone trying to slip into a fade. If she couldn’t have sent a message later that night, then the next day if she really felt like going with that as her excuse then she should have immediately followed it up by asking him for a redo. “Sorry I fell asleep. How about I call you tonight?” The poor guy felt it was a blow off, thus hasn’t asked her again, however he was interested enough to message her again just in case she was actually being serious, because gee if she liked him and wasn’t blowing him off then she might actually initiate with him. What a novel idea!

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    • arabella Says:

      Funny you should say that b/c he liked me enough to summon up the courage to ask me out for dinner tonight! He arrived with a beautiful bouquet of white and yellow roses. He took me to dinner at the Water Club overlooking the East River and i ate delicious shrimp, cauliflower au gratin and spinach. It pays to play hard to get. He even asked for a third date. Ha ha!

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      • uesider Says:

        Wine and roses on the second date? Sounds like a try hard.

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        • ATWYSingle Says:

          I think it’s pretty clear by her comments she’s either nuts or lying. Let’s not feed the troll.

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          • arabella Says:

            Not to worry. I am real :-)
            And my story is true. How can you know for sure? Call up the water club and ask how they serve their cauliflower.

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          • arabella Says:

            Not to worry. I am real :-)
            And my story is true. How can you know for sure? Call up the water club and ask how they serve their cauliflower. Chivalry is not dead.

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          • arabella Says:

            Chivalry is not dead. Men reserve it for women who act like a lady.

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        • arabella Says:

          Exactly… a man does try hard to please a woman when he is really “in” to her. Thats what men do when they are smitten. Lesson #1: don’t date a man unless he is smitten. How do you know he is smitten?
          A)he plans the date in advance, providing time, date and venue
          B) he is so eager that he reconfirms a day before.
          C) he is not ashamed to bring you flowers because you are “it” for him
          D)he treats you like a lady on the date (opens doors, helps with your coat, pays your way, etc)
          E)at the end of the date, he asks for your next date.
          Don’t settle for anything less, ladies. Snagging an alpha gentleman is possible.

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          • Biffski Says:

            And within six weeks the relationship (or whatever) is done.

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          • Lucy Says:

            I do agree with E. If you’re discussing another date during date 1, it’s generally an indication that things are going well. However, this stuff wouldn’t really apply to online dating because you are meeting an absolute stranger. You cannot expect an absolute stranger to be smitten with you on a first date/meeting.

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  6. AnnieNonymous Says:

    Why did she answer, “Sorry, fell asleep” instead of, “Sorry, I was with friends last night. Sure, you can call me today.”
    ????

    She’s wondering why this guy won’t call her even though she’s not giving him the go-ahead. I also suspect that she’s not making it easy for guys to discern her level of interest.

    There’s some really odd phrasing in this post, the “feminine energy” stuff being the most blatant. OP is parroting some weirdo rules that she picked up from some really outdated source. When people toss out weird language like that as if it’s normal, it’s a sign that there’s some other background/cultural (even if it’s only family culture) thing going on. “Feminine energy” just isn’t a phrase that’s out there in the public discourse, but OP thinks it’s normal and logical.

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  7. arabella Says:

    In case you are wondering, Mr. Feminine Energy was able to summon up the man courage to text again and ask me out for dinner. He was whining the whole time about how i am too busy to text back right away. He wanted to share MY shrimp cocktail so i gave him a tiny piece and he said, “wow i love how well you take care of yourself.” After he paid for dinner, he started fishing for an invite to see my apartment. Does your apartment have a view? Yes. Is it facing a noisy street? No. Do you fall asleep while watching tv? I dont have a tv. When he finally realized he wasnt getting invited up, he asked can i take you out again? So i said “sure why not?”

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  8. ATWYSingle Says:

    feel free to comment on the post itself but please do not address Bella directly. she’s a troll looking for attention.

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    • arabella Says:

      Of course, dismantle the lady who tells you something else is possible besides settling for crumbs. Because you don’t experience chivalry, you resort to discrediting a lady who does with slander and defamation. Charming, Moxie, just charming. Try acting like a lady moxie and maybe just maybe you will stop getting dumped.

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    • Bethany Says:

      Ugh, I started replying before I had gotten too far down the comments. Quickly realized it was a mistake. You should ban her. I bet that’d really piss her off. haha.

      I don’t even know if this troll is a “she”. Sounds like a redpiller or something.

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  9. Noquay Says:

    It is possible to be proactive and feminine at the same time. Just indicate interest and sit back; if he’s interested, he’ll contact you. If not, move on. Simple. I am surprised at the boneheaded replies folks make without thinking of how they come off. Why even say you’re going to”pencil someone in”? Why say “you fell asleep”? Why not “forgive me, I just got your message”? If you fell asleep, you just DID get the message. Think before you text, eh? I too consider myself a Lady; I am also very self sufficient, run a small farm in addition to my academic job. How do men know I am a Lady? My photos, my speech, my manners, in short, by actually meeting and getting to know me. Moxie is right, most of the freebie sites are a compendium of the desperate and those short on options. If one can’t afford a sub, one can’t afford to date and needs to address this first.

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  10. RC Says:

    Being a lady is firmly staying on your own two feet.
    Being a lady is respecting yourself and treating others with same respect.
    Being a lady is being assertive and fair, considerate and thoughtful.

    Expecting a certain treatment before extending any good will to another person is soon unleady like…

    Additionally, if two people are into each other – they naturally show it.
    If one person expects another to do all the work and go out on a limb for them – that’s manipulation. And only people who do not have other viable options will put that much work into someone entitled.

    To me the letter is written by someone in her early to mid twenties. I think OP is 40 – so let me ask her – how has it been working out for you so far???

    A true lady can afford her own dinner. What she looks for is a partner not a meal ticket and a doormat.

    Good luck.

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  11. D. Says:

    Women can choose to stand on ceremony if they want, and yeah, there are some guys who will still go to the kind of old-fashioned efforts they may expect. Whether that will ultimately result in happiness is anyone’s guess.

    That said, coming across as demanding is supremely off-putting for most men. Men who don’t view women as objects to be obtained and possessed are unlikely to be particularly attracted to a woman who thinks of herself as a princess in a tower. Most likely, they’ll just move on to someone who is easier-going and more pleasant to be around.

    I tend to think that people who erect all manner of artificial barriers to dating are actually more conflicted about dating than they may realize. When you’re busy hyper-analyzing someone’s text messages or gestures in excruciating detail, looking for flaws or errors or whathaveyou, that’s you basically just preventing yourself from dating, or at least from being happy in dating.

    I’m not saying it’s wrong to have standards or to act on those standards, but rather that it’s better to take people and their behavior as a whole, and consider their actions in context. If, on the whole, the signs point towards them being interested and pleasant to be around, go out with them and see where it goes. If the signs point towards them being disinterested or half-assing things, move on politely. That goes for men and women.

    All that said, the unfortunate fact about text and email for communication is that they can often lack context. So, “Sorry, I fell asleep” could look like “Whatever. Didn’t really give a shit about your message,” unless it’s considered in context. “I’ll pencil you in” could likewise come across as “Meh. Thanks for accepting. I’ll see if I get a better offer” absent any context.

    People are, unfortunately, more likely to just stare at those words, rather than focus on the overall interaction or how communication has been going as a whole. This, I think, is why it’s important to actually make your interest known and unequivocal. Otherwise, it’s entirely likely that people will interpret your understatement or offhand remark as disinterest or dismissal.

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    • SS Says:

      “it’s important to actually make your interest known and unequivocal. Otherwise, it’s entirely likely that people will interpret your understatement or offhand remark as disinterest or dismissal.”

      Ding, Ding, Ding – we have a winner !!!!!!

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  12. Ben Iyyar Says:

    I would like you all to know that for a man to make that first phone call and ask for a date with a stranger takes a lot of courage and a genuine willingness to risk rejection, at least that is how it was for me.
    I often think that women believe that us men hold all the dating high cards, that we are all confident, self assured, and almost fearless. If you knew me you might think that because I served as a combat medic in real shooting combat, that asking for that first date would be easy, but I still got cold feet and became nervous when I asked for that first date.
    I like Moxie’s advice that women should be more proactive in the dating scene and go ahead and ask the men they find attractive to go out. But even in 2015, I believe that many women will find it difficult to implement that approach. It’s hard to risk rejection.
    Personally, I know I usually took the emotional lead with the woman I married but she always made clear her fondness for me, and I know that brought me to love her even more.

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  13. Bree Says:

    There’s no such thing as an “alpha male.” The term was meant to describe behavior of wolf packs, not human beings. “The Sexist Pseudoscience of Pick-Up Artists: The Dangers of ‘Alpha Male’ Thinking”: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118036/sexist-pseudoscience-alpha-male-pick-artists

    I frequently ask men out. Any man who feels emasculated, intimidated, or turned-off that (aside from just not being interested in me; there’s a difference) wouldn’t get along with me anyway. I’ve taken the lead on most of my online dates and didn’t feel masculine or feminine either way about it, and didn’t get those vibes from my dates either.

    Time to move past this “men taking charge” crap when it comes to dating.

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  14. rick Says:

    I don’t see what calling a woman has to do with being an “alpha” male. I actually like it when a woman reaches out to me; after a certain point, I require it. didn’t you see the last season of mad men? all the girls are calling Don.

    I stopped calling women when I realized they respond with texts and emails. these days, if you are calling a woman it is making a big show of your interest and lord knows one should not show too much interest early on. that is what scares them away! unless I am really comfortable with someone, I am not calling unless necessary in a pinch.

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  15. The D-man Says:

    I think “arabella” is actually a guy who recently discovered Red Pill nonsense.

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    • Bree Says:

      My thoughts exactly. Douchey troll pretending to be the submissive, leadership-craving female the PUA community insists represent all women. Trying to prove some point to himself perhaps. I wonder if the response here is what he expected, heh.

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      • SS Says:

        Wait…. does that mean you *didn’t* call the Water Club to ask about Cauliflower?

        Took me 30 minutes just trying to get through – figured it was because of you guys clogging the lines…. ;)

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  16. Jef Says:

    What happened to the Alpha Males?

    They got confused and/or castrated.

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