When You Get Dumped Sometimes You’re To Blame, Too

March 24th, 2016

Co-Habitation, Dating Skills, NEW!

blame

 

Name: Katherine
:
Question: Hi! I matched with a guy on Tinder 5 months ago. But we only met 3 months later after I moved to his city for work. In the beginning he was very nice. Very prompt with his replies, and always made his presence felt. I had accommodation issues. And he offered me to let me crash at his place. Things were fine until I started getting emotionally attached to him. He wouldn’t talk to me as much as he used to. He wouldn’t go out with me, nor would he ask me to join him, which he used to do earlier. I’m a woman with demisexual feelings. And that attachment made me submit  myself to him. When he would be away for work, he wouldn’t text or call. I felt used and disposed. Then when I would confront him, he would sweet talk to me, and I would just melt. He asked me to move out ‘coz he had a hot friend flying down from London to see him. We met after 3 weeks, after I moved out, when he asked me to come over. I went, we had sex. And then I never heard from him until the next evening
when I gave him a piece of my mind. He said that he was drunk. And had been sleeping for 12 hours at stretch. Why do men do such things? Why don’t they have a conscience? What do they get after hurting somebody who’s very fond of them? It hurts. Hurts real bad.
Age: 32

 

First off, both genders are guilty of being selfish and self serving. Plenty of women accept dates from men knowing there’s no future because they want attention or somebody to talk about on Facebook.

Next, let’s forget about this guy and focus on you. So many of these letters revolve around wondering why the other person is so devoid of scruples and yet the letter writer themselves displays there own bucket of issues. Case in point: if you know you get attached easily, why did you agree to crash at the home of a man you’d been flirting with back and forth for several months? Better question, why did you sleep with him again when he’d already showed clear cut signs of being an insensitive douchebag?

I have to say that these “accommodation issues” sound like a ruse. Maybe I’ve just been reading xoJane for too long, but from reading comments there it sounds like “accommodation issues” is the primary reason why women in relationships end up living with their boyfriends. And in many of those cases, the boyfriends mysteriously want out and dump the woman shortly thereafter. The “my lease is up and I don’t have any place to live” is one of the older tricks in the book. Once the man or woman moves all their stuff in, it’s hard to get them out. Suddenly it’s, “But we seem to get along really well so why not just live together?” “Accommodation issues” are a convenient if underhanded back door entrance to co-habitation.

It sounds like this guy was trying to get you out of his home by being as distant and rude as possible. This scenario is similar to yesterday’s “he offered to buy me breakfast so I order three main courses and said I’d pay and he didn’t thank me” letter. Like, there’s a line between what’s socially appropriate and what’s rude. When you go out for a meal with someone you barely know, YOU DON’T ORDER MULTIPLE COURSES regardless of whether or not you plan on paying.  Here’s the thing: no guy in the history of guys believes when a woman says, “Oh, I’ll pay for it.” So if that dude seemed a little irked, it was because he thought he was going to get stuck with a massive bill. And I know in my gut she didn’t plan on paying that tab and only did it when she didn’t see signs that he would. If I offered to take someone to a meal and they did what she did, I’d sit there with my arms crossed and refuse to touch that leather bound bill fold. It would be a god damn staring contest until they offered to pay. No wonder he didn’t say thank you. /rant

OP, I seriously doubt this guy planned on your hunkering down in his apartment for more than a few nights. The hot friend from London? Either he was lying to get you to leave or he was being intentionally hurtful to get you to leave. Either way, he wanted you gone. His silent treatment wasn’t working. His refusal to invite you places wasn’t working. So now he had to pull out the big guns and tell you to your face he planned on having sex with someone else. (That is, if I’m interpreting this letter correctly. The friend could be male or the OP could be the one describing the person as hot. It’s not clear.)

Here’s what it all boils down to: you overstayed your welcome and disregarded your own boundaries and triggers. I’m not excusing his abrupt heave ho, but the whole situation sounds unorthodox and fraught with possible problems. I get the sense that you’re somewhat inexperienced and so maybe you just truly didn’t know how to read this situation.

But now you do.

Thoughts?

AndThatsWhyYoureSingle.com

Sometimes the love of your life is the love of your life. (R)

@ATWYSingle

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71 Responses to “When You Get Dumped Sometimes You’re To Blame, Too”

  1. Timothy Horrigan Says:

    According to the Demisexuality Resource Center:

    “Demisexuality is a sexual orientation in which someone feels sexual attraction only to people with whom they have an emotional bond. Most demisexuals feel sexual attraction rarely compared to the general population, and some have little to no interest in sexual activity.”

    I can see why people with this orientation might have trouble dating, especially dating people who have some other orientation.

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  2. TL Says:

    You went on a couple dates and then basically moved in with him (or “crashed”*, as you say). I’m guessing you didn’t pay rent, cook, or clean. When he finally had a free moment to himself on the biz trip, you complained that he wasn’t constantly checking in with you.

    If this guy wanted to be married, he’d be married. You moved in and he got tired of you. Period. End of story.

    *And when he offered you a place to crash, he was probably thinking it would be just a weekend with some easy casual sex thrown in, not a lifelong commitment.

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    • ? Says:

      Thing is, he was stupid for letting her crash at his place, particularly when he didn’t know her very well. If he wanted to help, he could’ve helped her find a place of her owh. Also, don’t get me started on men who offer accommodation with the expectation of sex, or women to take up such offers.

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  3. Jeff Smith Says:

    “Things were fine until I started getting emotionally attached to him. ”
    He let you crash at his place, not propose marriage. He never gave any indication that it was anything more that helping you out. I can understand why he started ignoring you.

    ” I felt used and disposed. ”
    Really? You were living at his place for free. Who was being used?

    “we had sex. ”
    Did you say no? I think not. It’s not like we was deceiving you, he had already made it clear how he stood. You could tell he had been drinking? That’s hard to believe.

    “What do they get after hurting somebody who’s very fond of them? ”
    Nothing – it’s like saying what does a flame get after I stick my hand in it and it burns me.

    He tried to help you out by letting you crash there. I guess no good deed goes unpunished has some truth to it.

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  4. DrivingMeNutes Says:

    “it hurts. Hurts real bad.”

    When I get that feeling, I need demisexual healing.

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    • Glazer Says:

      Had first date sex with a gal.

      Got us breakfast the next morning.

      I text her that we were not a match after breakfast.

      She replied, “I shared my body with you!”

      Uh…what did I share with you?

      WTF?

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      • SS Says:

        It’s possible I’m a boring old prude, but it feels pretty shitty when a guy already knows he’s never going to see you again but sleeps with you anyway.

        Women generally have sex with a guy that they think has potential to turn into a relationship. We can’t necessarily compartmentalize the way that men do.

        Being pumped and dumped is like getting suited and booted and attending a long job interview… and subsequently being told there was no job to begin with. Wouldn’t you feel “cheated” in those circumstances?

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        • BTownGirl Says:

          Obviously there’s very little detail here, but I don’t see anything saying he tricked her into anything or promised they’d have more dates. I mean, he could have strung her along I suppose, but he told her upfront that it wasn’t a match. Not fun for her if she wanted to get to know him further, but he told the truth and he doesn’t owe her anything if he’s not feeling it.

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        • Glazer Says:

          The point I didn’t quite make is that sometimes we see a red flag after quick sex.

          Like, if you found out the person was married or addicted the morning after?

          It’s not always a pump n’ dump, although it appears that way.

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          • BTownGirl Says:

            Even if there’s no glaring red flags, people have a right to say, “You know what? I’m not feeling it.” If the other person is getting super twisted after one date, that’s on them, not on you.

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          • SS Says:

            Ahh ok – thank you for clarifying.

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        • Goldie Says:

          I never had a job interview in my life where, halfway through the interview, the employer told me to stop talking and get out now because he’s got a hot new candidate coming in; then called me after I got back home telling me to come back and interview some more. The guy made it abundantly clear that there was never any job.

          “Women generally have sex with a guy that they think has potential to turn into a relationship. We can’t necessarily compartmentalize the way that men do.”

          Uh… sometimes we, or should I say some of us, do have sex with a guy that we know we’ll never have a relationship with; or don’t want to have a relationship with; or even with a guy that we know we’ll never see again. We are human beings, with needs. Things happen. As long as both sides are clear on where they stand, why not?

          I only got pumped and dumped once, years ago, when I was knew to dating, had completely misread all the signs and the messages, and was visualizing a future with the guy when there was none. It’s not being pumped and dumped when both people know what’s going on.

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          • DrivingMeNutes Says:

            “We are human beings, with needs. Things happen. As long as both sides are clear on where they stand, why not?”

            There it is. There’s always an “as long as” clause with conditions. Many women like you say they don’t expect anything but I’ve never met a woman who acted accordingly. No one is trying to take away your agency and I don’t know you of course so you may be unique in that respect. But to enjoy the company of women, one needs to play the odds. Women have needs sure but they are not the same as men when it comes to sex.

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            • SS Says:

              I really like this. Moxie has touched on it before too.

              Women have expectations. Women often can’t do FWB because they “catch teh feelz.”

              Granted not all women. And not all situations. But I wonder if there should be some responsibility on the man to think “shit she’s probably going to think this means something” … in the same way as a woman should not agree to let a guy take her for a $300 dinner if she’s not abundantly clear that she’ll want to see him again.

              I don’t know – I tend to worry too much about other peoples feelings. In the scenario described I feel bad for the girl, even if it was her own fault.

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              • The D-man Says:

                After a couple instances of this happening, that became my default behavior. I stopped escalating unless a) I felt like there was relationship potential or b) we both knew it was a hookup.

                No drama since.

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            • mxf Says:

              So, hang on, if women aren’t great candidates for FWB because of feelings, but also not great candidates for first-date sex because of expectations… what scenario is one where we can picture women enjoying non-relationship sex? It all seems very limiting.

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              • SS Says:

                Any woman can and should whenever she pleases.

                Just.. would you say that the number of women regularly and easily able to have NSA sex is in the majority?

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              • DrivingMeNutes Says:

                “It all seems very limiting.”

                Well, sure, if you frame the issue as some sort of impairment, ie “some women are incapable of causal sex.” I think that’s nonsense. I’m perfectly “capable” of grabbing a hammer out of the toolshed and whacking myself in the face with it -but why in god’s name would I want to?

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                • Goldie Says:

                  I think it might be not as much about wanting tons of casual sex, as it might be about not wanting to be treated like a fragile delicate creature that’s liable to fall in love with the first guy she has sex with; much like a newborn duckling attaches to the first thing it sees, thinking it’s Mom. I like to think that we human beings, of all genders, are a bit more complex than that.

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              • Missy Says:

                What scenario? The one in which communication happens, so you both KNOW what the other one thinks is going in. That’s a scenario where I can picture women enjoying non-relationship sex.

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            • ? Says:

              DrivingmeNuts, I think your statement needs clarification. I can’t speak for all women, obviously, but those women who can have sex without emotion or within a relationship context, still want to be treated respectfully. The very minimal “expectation” we have, is to be treated nicely before and after sex.
              One guy I had a FWB went to get himself a drink after sex and I asked if I could have one too as I was getting dressed. He told me to get it myself and when I walked out the door, that was for the very last time

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              • Glazer Says:

                That’s shockingly rude. I’m always accommodating to my guests.

                I even bought that gal breakfast because she was kind to me.

                As a matter of fact, all of my guests get breakfast :)

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                • SS Says:

                  I’m on my way. Have the bacon and diet coke ready please :)

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                • ? Says:

                  Come for the sex, stay for the breakfast :)
                  Can be your new slogan.

                  Well he did apologize later saying he had a really bad day. But that was the last straw for me on top of many other things about him.
                  For example, he said he wouldn’t share a meal with me because that was too “couple-y”

                  Look, one of the rules of FWB is knowing how to be collegiate and friendly with your FWB without crossing the line into couple-dom. My ex-FWB obviously didn’t have a clue.

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          • SS Says:

            Fair enough but her reaction suggested to me that she did not know what was going on and was not clear on where they stood.

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            • Goldie Says:

              I know, she didn’t and wasn’t! And I’m surprised as to why. The message was loud and clear. Did it have to be in writing?

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              • SS Says:

                It seems we have different attitudes towards these sort of things. In my dating life I try to think through first how my words or behaviours will affect someone, and generally do everything in my power not to cause hurt or confusion. Whether that be accidentally or through the other person’s false/unfair expectations.

                *shrugs*

                I guess we just agree to differ :)

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                • Goldie Says:

                  I guess we have to. Because in my dating, I’m not responsible for the other person’s false/unfair expectations. And they aren’t responsible for mine. If I was imagining marriage and kids with the guy, and he meant nothing of the sort, then unless he had actually proposed, that’s on me. He didn’t lead me on, I led myself on by jumping to misguided conclusions. Thing is, when we date, we meet a lot of new people, and with some of them, well, there’s no limit to their imagination. We all do everything in our power not to cause hurt or confusion. But some things are beyond our power. Sometimes we can’t stop the other person from thoroughly confusing themselves.

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                • D. Says:

                  That’s a lovely sentiment. It’s one I tried to live by, too. The thing is, it’s also the exception, rather than the rule. Most people don’t operate with that level of regard for the person they’re out with. Most people figure that as long as they aren’t consciously being assholes to the other person, they’re behaving fine.

                  The fact that someone doesn’t put as much forethought into their actions as you or I do, however, doesn’t mean that they’re a bad person. Nor does it absolve us of our responsibility to read the situation accurately and accept the risks we take when dating.

                  Basically, it’s perfectly fine to be conscientious of other people, but don’t expect the same from them.

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            • ? Says:

              I think telling her to move out because his “hot” friend was coming to see him is pretty good indication of where she stood.

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          • D. Says:

            To be fair, it’s also not being pumped and dumped if the other person doesn’t tell you anything one way or the other, and you simply assume there’s more happening than there is.

            There’s a big difference between being pumped and dumped (or being “taken advantage of by some dinner whore” or whathaveyou), and simply being disappointed that the other person lost interest.

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            • SS Says:

              She was wrong to assume, I agree. I guess what jarred me a little was that he was so surprised that she was upset.

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            • ? Says:

              As Moxie has said so so so many many times. You really can’t tell if it is a pump and dump.

              The man may lose interest after sex the first time, or after sex the hundredth time.

              Quoting Moxie : It isn’t a relationship, until it is.

              If you like someone and you get dropped, it doesn’t matter if it was a pump and dump or a dump after a 2 year exclusive relationship. You will still get hurt.

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              • ? Says:

                Sorry I should clarify something I said about Moxie. She added that it is then up to you to read the signs and develop an instinct for working out what a man’s true intentions might be.

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        • D. Says:

          Sorry, but nothing that happens on a first date entitles either party to any expectations going forward. It’s just a first date. It means nothing.

          There’s fundamentally no difference in the disgruntled guy who took a woman to Le Maison Expensíve for dinner on date #1, and the woman who slept with the guy on date #1, when either of them gets the “Thanks for the great evening, but I don’t see this going any further. Good luck!” text the next day.

          Is it disappointing? Absolutely. But you assume the risk when you engage in those kinds of actions. You know, or should know, that people can do complete 180s on first dates, and that “Yes” on Saturday at 10pm can easily flip to “On second thought, no” by 10am Sunday.

          And in truth, most people aren’t intentionally lying to each other. Lying would require some degree of forethought and conscious decision-making. Most people, instead, are just operating in the moment, going with their gut right then and there, and not really thinking about the consequences or where things might lead or what message their actions are sending. They’re just going with the flow and enjoying the evening. End of story. It’s only the next day that they decide “You know, actually, it kind of bugged me when they did XYZ. I think I’ll pass.”

          So, absent some active deceit by the other person, your disappointment is your own problem. If you’re not prepared to feel disappointed when things don’t work out, don’t take the kind of risk that an expensive first date or first date sex entails. If you’re likely to feel as if you’ve been “used” because someone else lost interest in you after you went outside your comfort zone….don’t go outside your comfort zone.

          Alternatively, if you’re gonna have sex on a first date, do it because you want to get laid, not because you think you’re building a connection with the other person. Likewise, if you want to go out to an expensive restaurant on a first date, do it because you want to eat at the restaurant and would like some fun company, not because you think they’ll be impressed or somehow beholden to you afterwards.

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          • SS Says:

            I agree with you, I just felt bad for the girl because clearly she was upset by the turn of events.

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          • ? Says:

            I think your approach works for first date sex and first date expensive dinners. Many men may still be ambivalent about a woman after first date sex and many women may still be ambivalent about a man after first date expensive dinners. So what next ? Hence suggestions women do not sleep with men until they think there is relationship potential, and suggestions men do not treat women until they think there is relationship potential.

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            • D. Says:

              It’s not even a question of “don’t do these things.” It’s more that, if you’re gonna do them, recognize that there’s risk involved and accept that risk if you choose to go ahead.

              There’s nothing wrong with taking a woman out for an expensive meal as a first date, provided that you’re doing it because you want to eat at that restaurant and would like some company, and aren’t doing it to try and impress her or in the hopes that it will make her like you. Likewise, there’s nothing wrong with sleeping with a guy early on in dating, provided that you’re doing it because you’re horny and it sounds fun, and not because you expect some kind of connection to form afterwards for him.

              And neither party should expect anything from the other in these cases. In fact, it’s probably wiser to assume that they’ll lose interest after you do this thing, and focus on enjoying the moment.

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        • ? Says:

          For many men under 50, for whom sex is very important. that decision to dump very often comes after sex when they think the woman is not sexually compatible. That’s the male version of try before you buy. For men, they need the woman to “do something for them” in bed. For women, the men will have to show them affection or attention and generosity if she is going to proceed with him. When a man finds a woman is not sexually compatible, it feels like pump and dump for a woman, and she feels used. When a man is dumped after spending time and money on a woman, he feels used.

          Of course you get men who keep coming back for the sex even when he’s made up his mind about not wanting you, just as you get women who keep men strung along when they have already decided there is no future with the man.

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      • ATWYSingle Says:

        Had first date sex with a gal.

        Got us breakfast the next morning.

        I text her that we were not a match after breakfast.

        She replied, “I shared my body with you!”

        I’d find that sad if, you know, it actually happened.

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        • Glazer Says:

          Ironically, anytime the sex was ‘quick’, it was always at her request and it was never about my money. I believe you touched on this once Moxie when you said some men view quick sex as an agenda.

          I believe there’s a grain of truth in that.

          That gal was quick to seal the deal so to speak and I won’t mention the dealbreaker that turned me off, but it wasn’t the sex.

          I now think twice about…quick sex.

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          • ? Says:

            Not really sure Glazer, why you would text her after breakfast about not being a match. Did you do this in response to her gushing enthusiasm about a follow up date ?
            I really don’t feel comfortable with ghosting after sex, but sometimes what else can you do ? It is a slap in the face to announce your intention not to see someone again without any prompting from that other person, slightly rude even.

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  5. SS Says:

    “Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days.” – Benjamin Franklin

    He offered to let you crash. Not stay. Not live. Crash.

    That has a very definitive and very finite meaning in my mind.

    Therefore if you were still at his place any time after 3 days, you were the one using and disrespecting him and I don’t really blame him for acting a bit shoddily to get you out.

    As for the 3 week later booty call. C’mon now. You’re 32. Didn’t you know what the deal was? If sleeping with him that night was contingent on certain expectations, then you had a duty to yourself (if not him too) to express those expectations before getting down and dirty.

    If you did not, then unfortunately you only have yourself to blame.

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    • Glazer Says:

      I’m genuinely shocked that nobody has thrown out a DSM-V label yet.

      Ya know, sociopath, narcissist, schizo, Asperger’s, Borderline Personality Disorder, etc. etc.

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      • SS Says:

        LOLOL yep. Unfortunately for the drama stakes, I think he was just a garden variety jerk.

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        • ? Says:

          Not a jerk for trying to get her out of his apartment. A jerk for coming back for seconds when he knew how vulnerable she was, emotionally speaking

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      • KK Says:

        This letter confuses me. Sooo, the LW says she is a demisexual, which I cannot believe has even been made into a thing. It’s not a sexual orientation. It’s a relationship preference. Next, maybe she didn’t include a bunch of details but I don’t understand how she could feel used. He let her stay in his apartment. Was she perhaps sleeping with him while she was staying there and that’s why she felt discarded when he didn’t invite her places? Otherwise, he was doing her a favor.

        Anyway. Yes. Being hurt sucks and I am sorry that happened. That being said, I know that it is really, really hard to stay away from a guy when you like him, especially when you rarely feel attracted to someone. But this means you need to be extra careful.

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        • BostonRobin Says:

          For years “demisexual” only seemed to exist on Tumblr. Then it started creeping into online dating. I suppose they’ll have a float in the “Pride” parade before long (it’s no longer “Gay Pride” in Boston because it includes all orientations).

          All I can say to these people is “bless your little hearts,” especially regarding online dating. Things move fast in that scene, and someone who needs “time” to form an emotional connection before feeling sexual attraction… omg, what the what???

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  6. Bostonette Says:

    Why do men do such things? Duh – of corse it was all him- I mean you did move aside for his hot friend from London to bag him.
    Why don’t they have a conscience? Duh- if you leave it to someone else to have a conscience …good luck with your life
    What do they get after hurting somebody who’s very fond of them? Duh- just b/c you’re fond of him doesn’t mean it’s reciprocated … Obviously.

    P.S. I was initially just going to write ffs

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    • ? Says:

      No one has responsibility for your happiness and feelings, except yourself. Unless you are a child of course. That said, basic civility and politeness is expected from everyone living in a civil society.

      If he asks nicely and you say yes, he is not responsible for how you might feel about the transaction later on….

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      • SS Says:

        This is the point that I seem unable to get across to anyone except D. so far.

        Is he responsible for her feelings? NO

        But surely that’s not to say that he can’t have *empathy* for her feelings.

        “Oh you’re hurt? SUCKS TO BE YOU!!!!” seems a tad callous to me.

        Some people consider Empathy to be one of the most key traits of Emotional Intelligence.

        I am perceiving that some people believe it’s “wrong” or “unnecessary” to be *empathetic* to those we reject. Perhaps I am misunderstanding?

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        • Goldie Says:

          No worries, I’m having an even harder time getting my point across and I am getting zero empathy in this thread.

          My point is that, yeah he could’ve been nicer about this (though, let’s admit it, allowing someone to crash at your place for what sounds to be a decent period of time is pretty damn nice.) But IMO we’re not doing her any favors telling her now that he was a jerk, he did her wrong, etc. He did not do anything egregiously wrong that I can see. I really think it’s not a good idea to help her set the same unrealistic expectations for the next guy she meets, that she approached this one with. It’ll just cause exponentially more pain for her down the road. We don’t want that, do we?

          “I am perceiving that some people believe it’s “wrong” or “unnecessary” to be *empathetic* to those we reject.”

          If I came across that way, I apologize. I haven’t seen anyone else on this thread who appear to believe that, either. Personally I’ve been empathetic to everyone I’ve, for lack of a better word, rejected. (though, imo, by telling someone after a few dates that things aren’t going to work out, we’re not as much rejecting them as we are doing them a favor, by not letting them get dragged into things that are indeed not going to work out.) Did it help them feel less upset? No. They didn’t want my empathy, they wanted more dates! Did it stop some of them from sending angry messages to my phone and email at all hours? Nope. If anything, I’m afraid it encouraged them to unleash more of their wrath, since I was being so nice and receptive to what they had to say.

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          • SS Says:

            Ahh the joy of text on the internet – always open to misinterpretation. No need to apologise, we are just discussing :)

            “IMO we’re not doing her any favors telling her now that he was a jerk, he did her wrong”

            Yes. Completely 100% agree. You may have seen that on my reply to the OP. I believe she brought the entire situation on herself, and hopefully she’s learned the lesson from that experience.

            The distinction I was hoping to make was: In a potential dating scenario (not just meeting a stranger at a bar and leaving 30 mins later)…

            I believe that someone (of either sex) should understand that in having sex with another person, there could be a strong likelihood that that person has feelings for them or wants it to be more than just a quick roll in the hay.

            With that specifically in mind, a person who **already** KNOWS that they do not want to see the person again is being summarily shitty, even in the absence of prior discussion or declaration by that other person, to go ahead and have sex anyway.

            If you didn’t decide until after the sex? Fair enough.

            But I believe the guy in the OPs story knew full well in advance that he only wanted a quick shag. He’s not responsible for her sleeping with him. He’s not responsible for her being hurt by his actions. But he is 100% culpable in sleeping with her when he knew she wanted more.

            So despite her being complicit, I believe it’s understandable and reasonable that she is hurt because it’s *not* 100% on her.

            Therefore when people have expressed that “he doesnt owe her anything” …”she’s not entitled to anything” its a little unfair. I think she was entitled to him either saying in advance “you know this is NSA only, right?” or just not sleeping with her in the first place. The onus was not just on her to establish boundaries first.

            D was right when he said that we should take responsibility for reading the situation ourselves (she didn’t) and not expecting a duty of care from another person. But I don’t think this thought process exhonerates his behaviour OR negates her hurt.

            Really hoping this made sense :)

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        • ? Says:

          You’te right. Empathy is a good trait to have, but no one is obligated to be empathetic. In fact, some people are totally incapable of it. I did mention in another post that this guy is a jerk for continuing to seek sex from her even after she had made it clear to him she was hurt from his behaviour the first time around. But everyone has a right to be a jerk if they so wish to be. The onus was on her to ensure she would not be hurt again, and fall victim again to his “jerkhood”.

          Reading her post, I can’t help recalling that saying: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

          To him, the fact that she said Yes despite him being mean to her on the previous occasion tells him she is OK and accepting of his behaviour. Men don’t just take women’s words for it, they judge by women’s actions. She if she said she was not OK with his behaviour, she should not have gone to see him the second time around. To him, it says she is OK with his behaviour, never mind what she said.

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          • SS Says:

            I understand what you are saying, and I realise that I’m in the minority here if not in the minority of 1. I was probably wrong to say “women…” because I am only speaking for myself.

            Basically my final word on the matter is this:

            No one is required or obligated to be empathetic: indeed. although it’s generally societally and psychologically agreed that’s a significant and insidious failing in character.

            Everyone has a right to be a jerk if they wish: absolutely. Those people are often called sociopaths etc etc. If the whole world went around saying “I have the right to steal your shit if I wish!”..or “I have the right to murder if I wish!”… uh… that’s not a world I want to live in.

            It feels incredibly “victim blamey” to me to hold her solely accountable for *his* bad behaviour, even despite her contribution to setting up the situation in the first place. And women are to blame for being raped for being out past midnight in a sexy dress? Because the onus was on her to ensure she wasn’t hurt? No. Just no.

            It feels unreasonable to give him a free pass for not expressing HIS boundaries and expectations whilst simultaneously castigating her for doing the same.

            “Well she showed up again so therefore I can do whatever I want no matter what she said” – sorry but I think that’s reprehensible scumbag behaviour.

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            • ? Says:

              Just a clarification. I do not conflate jerkness with criminality. If a man steals or rapes another, he is a criminal, not a jerk. Jerk equates to someone who does some morally questionable things which are not unlawful. I think a better analogy is a con man scamming the life savings of a naive old couple. But in this case, the behaviour of the con man is criminal. Should the behaviour of a con man of love be criminal ? Some people think it should be. It certainly is in countries where a woman’s virginity and sexual modesty is her prime tradeable asset that can be “stolen”. But we don’t live in Saudi Arabia do we ? Here there is no such thing as a woman’s sexual state being her prime tradeable asset. How about psychological harm then ? Bullying sometimes crosses the line into criminality. I think it becomes criminal when the victim is powerless to remove herself from the psychologically damaging situation – like if she was a child or under the legal control of her tormentor. But this is an adult woman who has every avenue to remove herself from a psychologically damaging situation.

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  7. Ronnie The Rused Says:

    I gave in to the ‘we might as well live together’ ruse. 10 years later and I’m just now breaking free. That was a long, and now very expensive, lesson.

    I sweat at any mention of a woman coming over now.

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  8. Nia Says:

    I feel sort of bad for this latest batch of letters, it seems like the normal “hijinks” and embarassing situations and really, really bad dates that most people I know got out of the way in their early/mid 20’s are still (or for the first time?) happening to them, and I know it hurts and sucks.

    However, part of me is like “isn’t there a cut off point where “crashing” with a question-mark dude and getting butthurt when he kicks you out for a hot friend is kind of…let’s say better left to the younger generation?”

    There’s no hard and fast rule, but those silly little listicles that say things like “30 things you need to know by the time you’re 30″ including things like “when he’s Mr. Right and when he’s Mr. Right Now” have kind of a point, ya know?

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    • KK Says:

      I feel like this is a really dangerous way of thinking and it only leads to more self-castigation.

      I completely agree that certain life experiences should be over and done with by a certain age. But..so what? This only works if someone is thinking about postponing doing those things. Well, it’s better to do it now than later. BUT, if you haven’t made those mistakes and you are in your thirties – what are you supposed to do, beat yourself up over it? She made a mistake when she was younger by not doing those things. That’s it. It isn’t her fault she doesn’t have the life experience. Now she is catching up. What IS surprising is that she is so surprised by what happened – surely she has friends who’ve been through this same thing.

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      • SS Says:

        Amen.

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      • Lucy Says:

        Sometimes friends don’t tell you about their experiences so you have no idea what kind of wisdom they might offer you. I also think that it’s common to positively project onto a situation and assume that you won’t get hurt by it or that you will be the exception to the rule. I really feel for the OP. But yeah i agree with you that everyone is on their own path.

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      • Nia Says:

        Well, I guess I’m thinking that life itself would be the teacher by a certain age. Reading dating advice columns on the internet, hearing stories from friends, watching movies/reality TV, and so on. Are there people in a bubble and do we hope things will work inspite of evidence that it probably won’t? sure, I’m guilty of that myself.
        What I was trying to say, perhaps not as eloquently as I could have, is that although there’s no yardstick in the sky, by a certain age, *usually* your 30’s, you have certain things set, and you know a certain amount about human nature. If you’ve been sheltered as a kid, and I certainly was, maybe take *extra* care and time before hopping into things, knowing that you don’t know things.
        Plus, I wasn’t only referring to this one situation, there’s been a few letters in a row that seem like “Dating 101″ is occurring at…a pretty late age in the game. But to your point, who am I to judge?

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  9. Joam Says:

    Sad, but true….
    Men fake love, affection and genuine interest in women to get sex and women fake sexual desire to get love.

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    • ATWYSingle Says:

      How profound.

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    • bbdawg Says:

      “women fake sexual desire to get love”

      Really? Maybe if you’re Donald Trump’s wife or an escort.

      Also, “love” is not something you “get” it’s something you feel.”Love” by definition has to be genuine.

      I feel like women for the most part tie sexual desire to feelings of romantic love. That’s why it’s hard to have casual sex. Because you’re not wired to separate one from the other.

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  10. bbdawg Says:

    Hi, I met a guy and moved into to his apartment two seconds after meeting and now he’s acting weird, he’s ignoring me. It can’t possibly be anything I’ve done, right? HELLOOOOOO!!!!

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  11. Sarah Says:

    I have so many questions.

    But none of them are worth posing because there’s no way this is a real letter.

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