Is He Afraid Of Assertive Women?

September 3rd, 2017

Feminism, Gender Roles, NEW!, Sex



Name: John   Question: My divorce was finalized 12 months ago and now I am online dating for a couple of months. I am not looking for a casual hookup but something with LTR potential. Here is a scenario that happened with a woman I met.

She is 45, divorced and has 2 preteen kids.  She lives about 30 minutes from me. She drives and has her own car. She doesn’t work since she is home all day and doing errands, taking kids places, etc. I didn’t directly ask her how she supports herself, house and 2 kids but she is clearly not working and I get the impression she hasn’t in some time. She never mentioned anything about being laid off and  she didnt mention anything about money being tight. So maybe she has income from other sources but it is something I am curious about. But after 1 date, I didnt think it was appropriate to ask her about this.

Our first date we met for a drink and it ended with a good makeout session. It was a 4 hour date. On date #2 I went to her place to pick her up and we went to lunch. I had to be at work by 4pm hence, the lunch date.Her kids were at day camp. After lunch we went back to her place and she was all over me and wanted sex. I didnt have a condom so I didnt, but the fact I had to get back to work provided the perfect way out. It just seemed too soon to jump into bed anyways.

She said we would do it the next next night which was a Friday night (and presumably I would be condom ready). But then she said that she wanted me to drive to her and pick her up, drive back to my place, have dinner and sex and then drive her back to her place and then for me to come home. WHen I asked if it would be possible for her to just drive to me, she said the guy should always pick up the girl. I lost all interest in seeing her. I dont even know her that well to the point that I dont even know what she does for a living so having sex seems like it is too soon for me.

It seems to me like she is looking for something casual. Since I am not, the ridiculous driving I had to do and not even knowing something as basic as to how she makes a living, made it seem too casual for what I am looking for.

I could have kept my mouth shut, do the roundtrip commute twice and had sex, but I felt like I was going through hoops. My best friend said I was nuts to pass up surefire sex on account of not wanting to jump through those hoops. So I am asking you to break this down for me. Maybe I am just not ready to be intimate with someone? Or is this a case of me just being picky?


I didn’t directly ask her how she supports herself, house and 2 kids

So maybe she has income from other sources but it is something I am curious about.

You know how she supports herself. Alimony. And? How is this in any way atypical for a divorced woman in your age range with children? What if she inherited money? Maybe she’s in the Mob. As long as she doesn’t try to leech off of you, I don’t see why this matters.  You’re analyzing the innocuous things that ultimately don’t matter unless you plan on marrying her and merging your finances. The idea of a woman living off alimony really gets under men’s skin, doesn’t it? To some degree I get it, but it’s important to remember that women didn’t make invent divorce laws. And I swear to God, if anybody peeps up about how divorce laws and courts are biased in favor of women, I’ll lose it. Ask a woman whose been raped or who reported a man for domestic abuse how the courts treated her, then bitch to me. Stop cherry-picking. The whole system is flawed.

After lunch we went back to her place and she was all over me and wanted sex. I didnt have a condom so I didnt, but the fact I had to get back to work provided the perfect way out. It just seemed too soon to jump into bed anyways.

I don’t think you chose not to have sex because it seemed “too soon” or because you didn’t have a condom. Please.  There’s a Duane Reade or CVS on every corner. If you wanted to have sex with her, you would have.  Don’t use a lack of a condom as the excuse, because that’s bogus.

You didn’t have sex with her because you were intimidated in some way. This wasn’t about catching The AIDS or fearing that you’ll be overpowered and chopped up and put into a box under her bed. Her assertiveness as well as her casual attitude towards the sex is what threw you. Citing  a lack of a condom and the “too soon” excuse is what people say because it sounds discerning and reasonable. The condom issue had nothing to do with it.

But then she said that she wanted me to drive to her and pick her up, drive back to my place, have dinner and sex and then drive her back to her place and then for me to come home.WHen I asked if it would be possible for her to just drive to me, she said the guy should always pick up the girl. I lost all interest in seeing her.

 Christ, I hate the both of you so hard right now. You, for judging her. Her, for making an unreasonable demand.  She wants you to pick her up and drive her back because she wants to see just how far you’re willing to go for her, both literally and figuratively. She, like you, is justifying the sex. She needs you to “treat her like a lady”  so she can screw with wild abandon. You could debate her on this and say it’s silly and needless. It won’t get you anywhere. You’re both struggling to adapt to a world where  men are no longer (ugh) “the gatekeepers of commitment.” Now I hate myself for saying that.

So I am asking you to break this down for me. Maybe I am just not ready to be intimate with someone? Or is this a case of me just being picky?

I don’t know that I’d call your attitude towards this woman “picky.” Judgemental, maybe, but not picky. You liked her enough to go out with her again and went back to her home for a continuation of your previous make-out session. It’s as if you were ready to go until she turned things up to eleven. I don’t know that it’s dating in and of itself you’re not ready for just yet. More likely, it’s that you’re not comfortable with how women have changed. You don’t like not being in control.

More specifically, you don’t like sharing control with women.  If you want to date in an age where feminism is now mainstream, you’re going to need to buckle up and let go of the reigns a bit. You’ll also need to dust off those sexist ideas you have about women’s sexuality and what they should and shouldn’t do. The tighter you hold on to those chauvinistic ideas the harder dating is going to be for you.



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25 Responses to “Is He Afraid Of Assertive Women?”

  1. ljsrmissy Says:

    Your response is spot on Moxie. Men and women tend to forget that women are both adults in addition to humans. Perhaps she was just going with what she felt at the moment, perhaps she don’t want to waste time finding out whether the OP is good in bed or not. If she is 45 and dont want to play that game anymore as a grown up that is her choice. Plus people act like one cant have sex ‘early’and be a good person in general and have relationship skillset in particular at the same time.

  2. Klimesanden Says:

    Well, your reply is just as judgmental as his question.
    Yes, maybe he had some idea of a relatonship with this woman but the latter had different things in mind. It happens all the time. He doesn’t necessarily have to be “intimidated by her assertiveness” because maybe if she showed that assertiveness in a different way (not to judge her, just pointing out why he might be put off) he would have fallen head over heels. Maybe he still didn’t exactly get over the divorce yet. And if he thinks about LTR it’s natural that he would think about her finances but seems like he started to fret about these details too soon and carried away. That doesn’t make him chauvinistic, but rather compulsive bordering on paranoid. It would do well to advise this man out of it rather than accusing and demonizing him.
    And we see the pitfall of feminism here. It claims that it s for freedom of all especially women but puts down women who don’t live up to its ideals. It implies that certain women are assertive and others doormats just for personal preferences. And demonizes men for being confused. On those topics, having MATCHING VALUES is a paramount quality for a LTR. Just like the woman in question isn’t a loose woman for what she did, the man isn’t necessarily chauvinistic either. They just seemed to look for different things and that’s OK.

  3. coffeestop Says:

    I am not even clear what the question is here. On the one hand the OP wants to have sex but he is turned off because he does not know how she payes her bills? Does he really care? She was married to some rich dude and now she gets child support and alimony. If she had a job the OP would find something else to complain about. So don’t have sex with her and don’t date her. Problem solved.

    As for the woman she has been living in suburban la la land for a million years, has not worked outside the home, has no idea how dating is supposed to work and gets off on playing games. She is going to find out men are not going to be all tha tinterested in driving her here and there unless she is a super hot chick then she will be able to do whatever she wants.

  4. Parenting Says:

    It matters if she is collecting alimony because she will lose that alimony if she marries someone else or even moves in with a guy in some states. Some guys would rather avoid that level of financial commitment right out of the gate and I dont blame them.

  5. Speed Says:

    I do agree that the guy is highly ambivalent, and wants everything to sort of magically fall into place in the first few dates. Typical dude online, maybe. So he came here looking for an ideological justification for fleeing, when in fact he should have gone to some Red Pill site, where all the bro’s would have clapped him on the back for “dodging a bullet from that gold-digger.” So whatever.

    Money is indeed important, but unless he plans on marrying the woman soon, he’s thinking way too far ahead. He was just looking for a reason to torpedo the relationship, which he did.

    As to the woman, her “mistake” of asking for a ride seems minor to me, and made in good faith. She didn’t ask for George Clooney or demand to see the dude’s bank statements. She also offered “immediate equity” in the form of sex. How much more of a softball could she have tossed the guy?

    The OP is the problem. He needs to go looking for an heiress or something.

    • Parenting Says:

      As woman, Ive rejected plenty of men for telling up front they dont want kids. Doesnt matter if its the first date or the 100th date. If I hear “no kids” we are done. I’m guessing the alimony was a big deal for this guy because he brought it up in no fewer than 3 separate paragraphs. If its a deal breaker its a deal breaker first date or 100th date.

  6. Em Says:

    You read this man. Rarely do I comment, but I just had to say it. Excellent job!

  7. Selena Says:

    About this woman’s means of support: at 45 with 2 pre-teens, yes it is likely that she is able to be a stay at home parent because of a combination of child support, spousal support/division of assets from a previous union, and inheritance(s). She probably would have explained this to you as you got to know her, but you weren’t really interested in getting to know her so…

    About the driving: I can understand how you would be annoyed making 2 round trips for a date. I can also understand how driving herself back and forth to your place (presumably out of town?) on the third date with the intention of having sex might have felt a bit … escort-ish. Can you see that?

    Given the ages of her children I suppose she planned to get a sitter for them that evening. Many single parents arrange intimate dates by also arranging sleep-overs for their kids. She may not have felt comfortable doing that with you on date 3. The first time with someone new is often awkward and “having to go home” is sometimes preferable to spending the night.

    I can’t help thinking these issues you write about this woman wouldn’t be issues if you felt more of a connection.

    • fuzzilla Says:

      **About the driving: I can understand how you would be annoyed making 2 round trips for a date.**

      I remember having a second date with a guy and we had planned to see a movie. He asked me to pick him up and I was like – well, it’s kinda out of my way, I have stuff to do beforehand, and if I pick you up, we’re not gonna make it to the movie on time. He said, “Oh, I don’t mind being late to the movie.”

      That really pissed me off/turned me off. Um, well, I do mind being late to the movie and I already told you no. The request itself wasn’t that big a deal, it was that he kept pushing the issue after I said no, and nothing turns me off/rages me out more than that (people not listening to me/not accepting my first answer at face value). We did proceed with the date but I was kind of tuned out the whole night and there was no third.

  8. Zaire Says:

    If John really cared to know he would have asked this woman what she did for a living. He didn’t care so he didn’t ask. He assumed she was collecting (child support, alimony, etc.) and formed an opinion of her based on that. Her asking him to drive excessively for a date leading to sex pretty much sealed his already narrow opinion of this woman. I don’t feel too bad for either of them but John just seems a bit neurotic and borderline crazy about his alimony “phobia”.

  9. Yvonne Says:

    “So I am asking you to break this down for me. Maybe I am just not ready to be intimate with someone? Or is this a case of me just being picky?”

    Yes and yes, although I’d agree with Moxie that you are perhaps being more judgemental than picky.

    If you wondered about her financial situation, there are ways to ask without sounding like you are snooping. You might have asked her about her work experience, for example, which is a perfectly reasonable question on an early date. But if you don’t feel comfortable asking a woman you’re dating a few personal questions, and you don’t want to get in your car and drive a woman home after sex, then yes, maybe you are not ready to have sex. If you’re not ready to have sex with someone, and not all men are after a couple of dates just because they are men, then don’t have it. But it’s not the woman’s fault if you’re not ready.

    I don’t know how long your marriage lasted. While a year post-divorce might seem like a long time, in my experience, it may not be.

  10. Selena Says:

    If he ended up meeting you there, what was his reason for asking you to go out of your way to pick him up? Low on gas/ gas money? Auto problems? Too tired to drive after work commute? Wanted you to drive him home in the hopes of you staying for sex? ;-)

    Seems to me John’s woman wanted him to pick her up and take her home because to her that felt like a *proper* date, rather than a booty call. I don’t think her intention was to get him to “jump through hoops”. I don’t blame him for not wanting to spend 2 hours driving back and forth and back and forth, but for a sex- for- the first- time date, I don’t think her request was way out of line.

    If they had hit it off, presumably they would be able to compromise on who drives to whom if they continued to see each other. And staying over sometimes instead of driving home at the end of the evening.

    • fuzzilla Says:

      **Wanted you to drive him home in the hopes of you staying for sex? ;-)**

      That could be it, because he did invite me up. I was like, “Nah, I’m good.” I guess I was kind of on the fence about him anyway, so maybe it wouldn’t have bothered me if I was more excited to see him. I don’t think he had a car, but it wasn’t a huge deal since this was back in the city where it wasn’t unusual for people to not have cars (but the reason it’s not unusual is because there are ample public transit options, so… I remember thinking, “Jesus, dude, you want me to wipe your ass for you, too?” I resented him wanting me to do all the work and then pouting when I said that didn’t work for me – seemed man-child-ish).

      • fuzzilla Says:

        So, circling back to OP – yeah, I can understand feeling annoyed at the request to drive her both ways when there’s no really compelling reason why he needs to.

      • Selena Says:

        I do think we are more willing to go out our way for people we are excited about, less enthused with people to whom we are on the fence.

        John seems bothered by the fact this woman doesn’t have a job.

        He seems a bit bothered that she was “all over him”, and wanting to have sex on their second date.

        He feels she is trying to make him jump through hoops by asking he do all the driving on their 3rd. date.

        I think if he were excited about her, these things wouldn’t bother him so much. Maybe not at all.

        Oh well.

  11. ATWYSingle Says:

    So maybe she has income from other sources but it is something I am curious about.

    I want to know if she’s one of those women who lives off the alimony of her husband because I hate women like that.

    The alimony question is a hallmark of the MRA/Men Going Their Own way Types.

    • BTownGirl Says:

      Clearly and I wouldn’t be shocked if there was also some “Well, if we were to get married, there would probably be no more alimony, so she’s going to TAKE ALL MY MONEY.” going on here as well. Boy, bye. It’s not just men who do this too, btw. I had a woman who I barely know ask me how much alimony my fiance’s ex-wife gets and ERMAGAHAD is it so much that it pisses me off? Like, who the fuck do these people think they are counting other people’s money for them? I invite anyone who believes it to be their business/their place to judge to stay home with multiple children for years on end and then let me know what they think they deserve.

    • Nia Says:

      I’m surprised to see you saying you “hate” women who live off alimony of their ex husbands! My mom married my dad at age 21 and had me a year later. She worked to support him through his last years of college (he was younger than her). She then quit to take care of me full time. Siblings followed.

      She didn’t even have her driver’s license until age 30! She was a full time SAHM who was part of a fundamentalist Xtian household and community, meaning that it was believed (like many MRA communities, I’ll have you know) that a woman’s highest place and sacred duty was keeping a home and raising children.

      My father, who got married very young, grew and changed, and was no longer happy in the marriage. He left after 14 years, suddenly. It was very much against my mother’s wishes and she was devastated and terrified.

      She had no job history, experience, or education. She immediately swung into action and got credits from the late 70’s applied to college, went back to school and started working 3 jobs to supplement the alimony and child support.

      Supporting a family is not just a woman’s or mother’s job. It’s a job for life. If you marry a woman and have children with her, you are making a life long commitment to take care of her and her children with you. If you break that commitment, there should be and actually are consequences, in the form of alimony and child support.

      Raising children and managing a household is a full time job. It is not soap opera and bonbons time. She has to do her job and his job too. He’s paying for his freedom, 90% of the time. My dad suddenly had all the money in the world when he was single—his company paid for his car, apartment, and weekly flights to see his kids. My mom struggled to put food on the table.

      Women are NOT, in general, rooking men out of their hard earned money. They are entering into a good faith agreement *for life* and taking a huge risk having children with a man.

      I think maybe the punctuation on the response is off, so I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, but I had to get that rant in there. Those men that believe women are gold-diggers for living off alimony are selfish jerks.

      Either women are fragile, foolish, childish babymakers who need to be “carried”, protected, and provided for, or they’re scheming harpies and gold-diggers who marry men, “trap” them and live off them. Which is it, MGTOW/MRAs?

      • Parenting Says:

        I get the impression Moxie meant to put that sentence in quotes.

        • BTownGirl Says:

          Definitely – she was breaking down what the LW meant by that statement!

          • Nia Says:

            Yeah I thought possibly that might be the case like “I hate women like that…” but I felt like for any of the guys lurking or commenting here about how alimony is theft, it might be of value to see another side of it.

    • Sheba Says:

      I like to call them Red Pillocks.

  12. Tony Says:

    One thing that nearly always turns me off is when sex is a given and you don’t have to work for it, sounds ridiculous I know but I have turned down sex many times because of it, but have also had sex many times on first dates, which kinda contradicts itself I know, but I think we may have a deep need or desire to win fair maiden, like the old adage “people always want what they cannot have” .
    I would have also refused to pick her up unless she was hot and I was experiencing a dry run of late, but I get bored driving so have met quite a few women at my house (playing with fire, I know) but never had any bad experiences (fortunately).
    I don’t mind paying for the meal etc but I once dated a women who was stay at home on fb, also with pre teen kids and was living on benefits and Child maintenance from the father of her kids, she was very hot and I paid for everything for 11 months and did a 1000 miles a month in my rather expensive to run car (20 mpg)on top of the 2000 miles i already drove to work each month, eventually I quit my job and called an end to our relationship,( we are still fb friends and talk often) so I get where this guy is coming from and it is wrong for any of us to question his integrity when he said that he thought it was too soon as he may well be genuine.

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