First Dates Are No Place For Your Sexist Bullshit

I’ve said time and again that I think dating coaches are a joke and a half and that nobody should pay them, and this is why.  What sort of Victorian era bullshit is this? In what world does make an effort = spend a lot of money?  And how is amount of money spent an indication of the man’s character? Any guy with money to burn or who is super desperate to get laid will fork over coin to get into a woman’s pants.

Why is this guy encouraging women (and you know that’s his base) to expect men to pay OTHER THAN it plays right into the women’s sense of entitlement? He’s pandering to his audience so they’ll like him and pay him. Full stop. I can’t even with his “cost of maintenance” fallacy.  As I said my combative responses to him, cost of maintenance is not a fixed cost, meaning it’s not required. If I want to get a blow-out or manicure before a date, that’s my choice. I would never expect to be reimbursed for something I chose to do on my own. What he’s failing to acknowledge is that those tiny expenditures can actually be re-purposed, thereby providing the woman with a return on investment. If a guy blows a hundred dollars on a date and she’s not into him, that’s money he’s never going to see again. (And PS? Most straight men don’t notice your gel manicure or threaded eyebrows with the perfectly sculpted arch.) It’s high time we stopped assessing someone’s worth based on a credit score or bank account. Shit happens. If you don’t understand that, then your world view is breathtakingly limited.

My contempt for this turd isn’t about not wanting to see women be treated respectfully. It’s about how he’s perpetuating gender roles and stereotypes. This guy is blissfully unaware that he actually has his own sexist ideas about women. Clearly, he believes women should show up to a date looking a certain way. That’s their “contribution” because god knows he’s not there for her personality or intelligence, amirite?

He thinks women should be courted, because apparently he was Mr. Darcy in a past life. I don’t doubt there are women who want the red carpet rolled out for them on first dates, but what more and more women  hope for is to be treated as an equal. Don’t leer at us or talk about our bodies. Don’t try to buy our affections. Don’t try to get us drunk because you’re too pathetic to get laid any other way. Ask us about our interests and don’t dominate the conversation. Say what you mean. Be reasonably honest. (Yes, I said reasonably. Everybody lies. Get over it.) 

All that said, the sad truth is that most guys will pay because they know it’s expected of them to do so. We’ve been groomed to believe that men are supposed to pay for us in order to prove their value and stability and we’re just supposed to show up looking hot. It’s going to be a long time before we shed that expectation, so for now most men play it safe and pay so they don’t get labeled a cheapskate. It just makes things easier, but that doesn’t mean women shouldn’t contribute. I’m not going to repeat myself on that point. Offer to pay your goddamn share. You want equal pay? Then you need to contribute equally. End of story.

Years and hundreds of articles, you say? Bitch, hold my beer.

Thoughts?

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27 Responses to “First Dates Are No Place For Your Sexist Bullshit”

  1. Claire Says:

    I totally agree with the guy, sorry. He is saying that a guy does NOT have to blow a lot of money or take the date to an expensive restaurant, but paying is a gentleman-ly gesture and shows interest. Women like being pursued. A woman should offer but a guy should pay on the first date, even if it is just a coffee date.

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  2. Yvonne Says:

    Actually, at the end of his video, he says, “She just wants you to put in effort. If the best you can do is taking her on a walk through the park, take her on a walk through the park.”

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    • UWSGal Says:

      Exactly. I would much rather go to a walk in the park, than an expensive date a guy can’t afford, but won’t take me up on an offer to split because of his pride, and will be left seething. Dating outside of his price range is the worst a guy can do.

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  3. Nia Says:

    I think the only possible argument for a man paying on the date is the gendered pay gap. If a man is making 100 dollars for my 87, he can pick up the tab on my cup of coffee. If, however, we’re not in the same field, which is very likely, than splitting, doing something free, or “you get one round, I get the next” makes much more sense.

    Maybe framing it as “Women: pay for your own drinks for the following reasons:

    You will have more control over your consumption (I don’t mean calories, I mean getting too tipsy)

    You won’t feel obligated in any way: not conversationally, not sexually, not romantically

    You will be sending a guy a message that you’re *not* expecting to be treated like a “princess” and that you’re a modern woman with down to earth, reasonable expectations

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 26

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    • UWSGal Says:

      This is so ridiculous. The only reason a man should ever pay for a date is because he WANTS to, he wants to go out to a nice place, which presumably he can afford without blowing up his retirement fund, with a nice woman whose company he enjoys. Not because of “patriarchy” or “pay gap” or because he thinks that he will be judged if he doesn’t pay. Seriously. If the latter is the case, please just don’t ask me out, stay home and watch TV…

      And I think that most women are perfectly capable of controlling their own alcohol consumption, regardless of who pays for it.

      **You will be sending a guy a message that you’re *not* expecting to be treated like a “princess” and that you’re a modern woman with down to earth, reasonable expectations**

      This may come as a shock to you, but men in general don’t care if you are “down to earth women with reasonable expectations”. This is NOT a selling point, why would you want to demonstrate it on a date? In fact, it is the opposite, men shun away from women who are independent, equal or more successful than them, and show assertive/masculine side (i.e. paying). Men want women who are hot, and who make them feel good about themselves. The latter generally comes in the form of you stroking their ego. Which can be most easily accomplished by letting him be the “strong guy who pays!”. The ones who don’t could be interested in getting to know your super attractive inner world, sure (rolling my eyes), but most likely they’re just looking for a cheap lay. Hey, can’t blame the guys for trying. If you are gonna drive yourself to his place, bring your own beer and have sex, that’s his we dream… you’re a modern woman, lol.

      Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 7

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      • Nia Says:

        Wow, I had no idea that this topic brings out such intense vitriol and sarcasm! Honestly.

        If men’s online dating profiles are anything to go by, men *do* care about a woman’s personality, character, or nature, whatever you want to call it. Being someone who is easy going and has reasonable expectations is a plus for them. I have seen tons of profiles say things like “no attitude” or “no drama” etc.

        Take a stroll over to MRA-land on the internet and see the thousands of extremely angry comments about “dinner wh*res” and “gold-diggers”. Though I wouldn’t want to date those guys, the anger at feeling used and taken advantage of is real.

        If the profiles aren’t anything to go by, I would go by the successful relationships I’ve been in and my friends have been in. They 100% cared about my “inner world.” Looks and youth fade and change. Sure, it’s a spark that attracts someone at first, but in a long term relationship, a “hot” woman isn’t enough, and I think most men realize this. Most mature men.

        I’m also not talking about paying for the whole date. I’m saying split the check or offer to cover a round/desert. Nowhere did I say pick up the whole check, drive yourself to their place, etc. Geez!

        Finally, I didn’t mean that women are helpless ditzes unable to turn down drinks paid for by men. I mean that if the checks are separate, it’s easy to say no, whereas if the guy’s paying, he can say “another round please” and then the woman has to speak up and correct him, which some women don’t like doing.

        Having said this, most men I’ve gone out with have wanted to pay, and have borderline insisted on it.

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        • Speed Says:

          “Wow, I had no idea that this topic brings out such intense vitriol and sarcasm! Honestly.”—Nia

          Yes, I myself obviously trolled. But that’s okay, because Moxie’s entire post here is an obvious troll for all of us. She took some D-level dating coach to the woodshed for dispensing commonsense advice, “Guys, pay for the first few dates, even if you can only afford a little.”

          WTF?!

          Now, if a man asking out and paying for a few dates is some vicious attack on women’s rights, then I suppose we all have to stay home.

          Or only date ANTIFA members or something. Although even in that group I imagine a lot of guys are paying for the first few dates.

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          • ATWYSingle Says:

            First let’s unpack this bullshit:

            The only reason a man should ever pay for a date is because he WANTS to, he wants to go out to a nice place, which presumably he can afford without blowing up his retirement fund, with a nice woman whose company he enjoys.

            If men actually followed that logic, they’d hardly ever pay for dates. If the roles were reversed and women were expected to pay for dates, how many of us would jump at the chance to blow money on a guy we barely knew? Men do it because they know it’s expected, not because they “want” to.

            Secondly, the only reason a woman should need to pay for her share of the tab is that she ate the food and consumed the drinks she ordered. Full stop. If you went out with a platonic friend, you wouldn’t sit there and expect them to pay even if they invited you. Just stop.

            Yes, I myself obviously trolled. But that’s okay, because Moxie’s entire post here is an obvious troll for all of us. She took some D-level dating coach to the woodshed for dispensing commonsense advice, “Guys, pay for the first few dates, even if you can only afford a little.”

            Did any of you actually watch the video? Here’s what he says, verbatim:

            “Paying for date sis not about money. Dates are about courtship, about pursuing a woman. It’s about showing you value her, her presence, and her time. It’s almost like a gesture of appreciation or of contribution to her to take care of the bill.”

            Let’s break that down.

            Money.
            Value.
            Contribution.

            Kinda sounds like he’s describing a piece of property, doesn’t it?

            Then he draws this stupid analogy that I can assure you he heard from women.

            “If you really want things to be even, let me present this to you…cost of maintenance.”

            No self-respecting man is even thinking along those lines, let alone trying to pass that off as an original thought. Once again he’s drawing a comparison that involves money spent.

            It’s not about money, but…it’s about money. It’s about spending money to essential pay her for her time. Hmmm…what kind of women do men normally take out to dinner and then pay the woman for their time?

            Then he backpedals on the everything he said. “It’s not even about the money. She doesn’t need you to take her out to a five star restaurant. She just wants you to put in effort.”

            Oh. So, picking a place to meet, looking nice…that doesn’t qualify as effort? Which is it? It is about paying or is it about effort? Those are two separate things.

            How do you people not see that he’s completely contradicting himself? Also, if you looked through his stream, this dude likes to record himself with hot women – women that undoubtedly would never fuck him – because he wants people to see the hot chicks he hangs out with. Everything he says is to get women he could never fuck in a million years to like him.

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            • Speed Says:

              As I wrote, the guy’s a D-list coach. I doubt he’ll be on the Today Show anytime soon, or invited to give MIT lectures on human behavior. So his advice is commonplace or scattered or inconsistent or perhaps wouldn’t pass muster at Oberlin College. So what?

              I see no evidence that he’s some raging sexist.

              Simple fact is, in American culture (and very many others), the man paying for at least the first few dates is the norm.

              Now, we can question that norm, suggest it should change, etc. Fine.
              But the first date is probably not the place for that. II see no need to start a culture war on a first date when you can just drop $50 (or $10, whatever you can spare).

              You’ve read a lot of nefarious motives into this D-lister’s advice.
              If you say “we all don’t see it,” this guy’s “obvious sexism,” maybe that’s because it’s just not there.

              Nowadays on this blog, it seems that weaponized terms like “sexist” or “racist” or whatever are simply unpacked and thrown at anyone who has even a slightly different worldview or lifestyle.

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            • UWSGal Says:

              Actually, some men DO like to pay. More than you can imagine. It makes them feel powerful and generous and they enjoy feeling that way. Plus they enjoy the actually experience of being in a nice restaurant. Of course these are the men who can easily afford it, so they are not blowing their rent money. How do I know it? Because they told me (my platonic friends). And if the tables were turned? I once dated a totally broke guy. I enjoyed going on dates with him, and I was the one who paid. I could afford it and it wasn’t a big deal… and dating IS different from going out with platonic friends. Dating is auditioning for forever and ever. You kind of want the other person to show their desire to do MORE for you than a platonic friend would. Otherwise you would just be friends.

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              • Parenting Says:

                This is an excellent point. On a date you are not meeting with your bff, hair in a bun to bitch about your job. You are meeting with a new person you are trying to woo and charm. This is why marketing professionals who are trying to court a client invite them to paid for lunches and sporting events. When I have been invited out to lunch by a prospective or new employer we did the very same awkward wallet song and dance as I have on dates. I pull out my wallet and they wave it away.

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        • UWSGal Says:

          Nia, sorry, i stand by my assessment. Men want women who are good looking and make them feel good about themselves (can you blame them? We as women want the same thing). Splitting the check will not make them like you more… some women make that mistake and think they can demonstrate how “cool” they are, they can earn man’s affection. Nope. Not that case. No guy has ever said “she was blah, but hey she paid her 1/2 check so there may be a real future here!”. The opposite is also true. This is just not a selling point…. And of course I wouldn’t want to model my dating behavior to appease some MRA guys… if a guy holds those (women hating) views and I somehow end up on a date with him, I kind of want him gone anyway!

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        • Selena Says:

          Nia: ” Having said this, most men I’ve gone out with have wanted to pay, and have borderline insisted on it.”

          Having read this blog for several years…one thing I’ve found interesting is the number of women who comment about how insistent they are about offering to pay on dates and do! And then go on with an addendum of how seldom they’ve had to do it because their male dates wouldn’t *let* them.

          Do you realize how false this comes across Nia? How people reading might be going pffft at your “modern woman” declarations?

          There was no “intense vitriol and sarcasm” about your comment. It got a lot of down votes because it didn’t ring true.

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  4. Speed Says:

    Men flirting, asking out, and/or paying for dates is just another way the patriarchy operates (under the guise of “custom” or “being a gentlemen”).

    When a man asks you out (and then pays!), it’s just another excuse for him to affix the “male gaze” on your body, to which his petty meal/drink payments give him a feeling of entitlement. It also reinforces capitalist-patriarchal structures of male dominance. In other words, when you allow a man to flirt with you, ask you out, and pay for your date, you are placing yourself in a position of supplication, if not actual danger.

    It’s best to avoid or immediately remove yourself from such an unsafe situation. The good news is that women’s collectives are forming all around the country. Join one today, and socialize, grow and build networks in a safe, empowering environment.

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    • Sheba Says:

      In my experience, a man who wants to affix his male gaze on my body (because he’s sight impaired) will do it no matter what I do or don’t pay for.

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      • Speed Says:

        You’re right, there’s still a danger. Inside the collective, though, you are certainly shielded from that sort of gaze. Also, some collectives raise their own organic foods and are somewhat independent, disrupting patriarchal capitalist systems.

        Outside, over the medium term, it’s a matter of helping to robustly enforce and widen No-gaze and No-approach policies, already emerging to a limited extent in some public, private and corporate spaces.

        It’s not a simple matter to fend off the male gaze and approach, but with collective effort it can be done. Accepting a date and allowing him to pay is certainly not the way to do it, though.

        I’m really hoping that you can help in the mission.

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  5. UWSGal Says:

    Personally I enjoy being “courted”. I enjoy going to nice places, and doll up/dress up for the occasion. That does NOT mean i will not insist on being treated as equal. If/when we get into the serious relationship, any guy can be sure that I will continue to work in my chosen career, and contribute to the household, not spend his money on decorative pillow and design dog collars… or whatever bullshit “jobs” rich women do. There will be time for splitting the bills and funding the downpayment on that house equally – later, when we’re a couple. But until then… let him court.

    I agree though that the amount of $$ spent is not a good indicator of effort. It should be looked at in proportion to the guy’s income and status. If a graduate student takes me to Per Se, he’s putting in way more effort compared to a banker who does same. It is all relative…

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    • fuzzilla Says:

      **There will be time for splitting the bills and funding the downpayment on that house equally – later, when we’re a couple. But until then… let him court.**

      Have to say, I agree. I don’t think I’m particularly high maintenance or need the guy to spend a lot of money, but cheapness is a turnoff. A guy being overly concerned about the price of two or three dates and barely putting in any effort is someone who’s not very interested and just going through the motions. Like you said, once we’re a couple things will be 50/50.

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      • Sheba Says:

        My grandfather always said, cheap with money, cheap with love. I have never, ever seen that disproved.

        He wasn’t rich but he was generous with what he had.

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  6. Steve from the city next door Says:

    I will always pay on the first few dates. My experience has been that if I let a woman pay in the first dates (say 3 or 4) then that is it – no more dates with her. I don’t care to pay — I mean it is great that I am able to. I can’t think of any guy I know below retirement age that feels it is important to them personally.

    It also seems that most women I encounter do want to be courted to some degree.– exactly what that is varies.

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  7. Em Says:

    Whoever asks for the date should pay. After that, take turns.

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  8. Betty Says:

    In my experience, guys who are cheap on dates have miserly personalities in general. Be prepared to negotiate just about everything (time, money, affection, etc). The first few dates should be whimsical and fun., not an argument about who ate which appetizer and how much was that glass of wine. Once more is established, you can take turns paying for things.

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  9. Annabelle Says:

    This nugget of wisdom came from an older female friend to whom I was explaining that I didn’t care if men paid on dates: She said men value two things above all else (yes, a bit of a generalization), their time and their money. Spending those on you demonstrates that a man is invested. Now, that doesn’t mean a woman should never pay. It’s just something to think about in the beginning of a relationship.

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  10. Pina Says:

    You’ve done it your way for a long time and the results don’t seem to bring you happiness. Is it possible that there is no right or wrong answer and people just have different sensibilities? Some people like traditional gender roles and there’s nothing wrong with that. Part of being feminist is to allow women to live according to their values even if they are different than yours.

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    • Selena Says:

      Moxie: ” If you went out with a platonic friend, you wouldn’t sit there and expect them to pay even if they invited you. Just stop.”

      Pina: “You’ve done it your way for a long time and the results don’t seem to bring you happiness. Is it possible that there is no right or wrong answer and people just have different sensibilities? ”

      The reason you always get push-back on this topic Moxie is because many people of both genders don’t equate going on a date with romantic possibilities the same as going out with a platonic friend – as you do.

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  11. 40something Says:

    Hmmmmm. Generally, I think most men “expect” to pay on the first couple of dates. I’ve almost always made more than the men I’ve dated (what can I say? Struggling artists and writers are drawn to me) but they still paid on the first couple of dates. Granted, I am a football and darts kinda chick. I’m not into “expensive” dates. Fancy stuff is work related. I have 3 kids so at this point in my life, I consider going for a walk like a trip to the Maldives.

    And this may be crazy, but my guy friends always pay when I go out with them. Nope, I don’t expect it but they really won’t *let* me pay. They are very generous peeps.

    Maybe I have nothing of substance to add on this one.

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