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Spring Fever Is A Great Excuse To Have Sex..Or Not

May 17, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 2 Comments

It seems I have developed a bit of a food allergy. I think. I hope. The right side of my tongue and my right hand/arm are tingly. Overall, I’m feeling a bit wonky and weak. I never get sick. When I do it kinda wipes me out. In any case, I don’t feel up to writing a full post. This was originally written Apr 4, 2011. The post generated 76 comments. Since we appear to have a whole new batch of readers, I’m going to repost this. PS? Last night a good friend of mine made me a delish salmon dinner. (The suspected culprit of aforementioned wonky-ness.) We were standing outside his building, enjoying the view (see pic at right) before we went for a walk, when Jude Law walked right past us. Omigodomigodomigod. Talk about enjoying the view.

Name: M. | | Location: New York , NY |Question: I met a guy about 6 weeks ago who I really like. We’ve had 4 dates so far, despite the fact that he’s made 5 business trips to the West coast during this time. Considering the weekends that he’s had with his teenaged kids (he’s divorced) and the time spent traveling, it seems he’s made an effort to try to see me as often as he reasonably can. We always have a great time: great conversations and blistering chemistry. There are calls, texts, emails from him every few days or so.

We got tickets to see a play this upcoming Sunday. It’s a matine (2pm) and in the email where I accepted his invitation I said how cool it would be to wake up together in the city (he lives in NJ) and walk across town to a matinee then a have a great dinner. I also added “not a suggestion…just dreaming out loud”. I did this because although our time together always includes heavy petting and kissing, our emails and texts are always platonically friendly and I felt like adding a bit of romance to one for a change, in a fit of Spring fever. He had already invited me to go on one of his trips with him but I declined, and he had also invited me to spend the night at his place, which I also declined. My image of waking up together was maybe to let him know that I was thinking along those lines for the future, if not now. I admit that I didn’t really give it much thought before sending it.

He didn’t respond to the email (which I didn’t expect him to do, since there was no question in it) but in a phone call a few days later he says, in passing, how much he’s looking forward to Saturday and Sunday together. I was confused since we didn’t have plans for Saturday, so he brought up my email, which surprised me since I forgot about it as soon as I hit ‘send’. I remember stuttering something about how I did write that it wasn’t a suggestion, but he said that it sounded like such a good idea. Since I really, really hate discussing anything serious over the phone so early on I let the matter drop. Now as the time is approaching he mentions again how much he’s looking forward to our weekend together. He mentioned going out in Manhattan Saturday night, both of us going back to his place in NJ, making brunch together Sunday morning then driving back to the city for the play.

Moxie, the problem is that I don’t feel connected enough to him to sleep with him (and spending the night with a guy who lives 30 minutes away and not sleeping with him seems a bit silly to me). Yes, I am turned on by him physically, but at this point if I never heard from him again I would just think of “that cool sexy guy what’s-his-name…too bad nothing came of it”. I really enjoy sex with a guy I care for, but don’t really care to have sex with a guy I barely know. I’m seeing other guys (not having sex with them either) and as far as I know he’s seeing other women and if he’s not it’s because his schedule’s been too busy. At this point I don’t really care if he’s seeing other women: we’re still getting to know each other. Six weeks would ordinarily be long enough, I suppose, if he hadn’t been travelling, and if our phone calls had been more than brief chats to check in and exchange pleasantries.

How do I tell him that I’m not ready to sleep with him? I’m perfectly fine with the way thing are going, and don’t want to imply otherwise. I’m afraid any explanation will send the wrong signal: I’m not putting him off because I don’t want him or like him. I’m just not ready for sex with him. I don’t want to tell him this in an email or over the phone. I can’t wait to see him (it will have been three weeks since our last date) but is it fair to meet him on Saturday and then tell him that we can go out that day and again the next day, but we’re not having sex? Should I call him beforehand and tell him, or cancel our plans for Saturday? (I cancelled one date on him already because of illness). I really dread inserting a note of confusion into something that’s going so well so far. No need to tell me all of this was my fault for bringing up the romantic scenario in the first place…I’ve already given myself enough lashes for that one! How should I handle this without changing the fun vibe between us? |Age: 40

I’m not sure you can put this particular genie back in the bottle, I’m afraid. This guy is going to feel like he’s being used and manipulated.

Six weeks would ordinarily be long enough, I suppose, if he hadn’t been travelling, and if our phone calls had been more than brief chats to check in and exchange pleasantries.

Okay. Which is it. You start off by saying he’s made a great deal of effort and seem impressed by that. But here you seem to be downplaying the effort and time you’ve spent getting to know him.

Yes, I am turned on by him physically, but at this point if I never heard from him again I would just think of “that cool sexy guy what’s-his-name…too bad nothing came of it”.

If you were as detached as you implied, you wouldn’t be trying to be romantic with him. You just wouldn’t. You said it yourself in the opening of your letter. You really like him. Again, you’re contradicting yourself. I don’t think this is a matter of you not knowing if you like this man. I think you’re afraid he doesn’t like you. I also believe you’re afraid you’re going to have sex with him and he’s going to disappear. You know what? He might. He might never call you again. He could be dating Lord knows how many other women and spending alternate weekends with them. This is fear at work. But fear of what?

I understand the need to be comfortable with a man in order to have sex with them. But more often than not, this is a bullshit excuse women use when what they’re really wanting is proof the guy isn’t going to leave them. Well, you’re never going to get that. A man or woman can make all kinds of promises and still leave.Let me explain something to you…regardless of whether you have sex with him, if he’s going to bail, he’s going to bail. The sex isn’t going to be a factor.

Well, other than not having it. That will be a factor. Especially now since you put it on the table. Most people – male or female – would interpret “I want to wake up with you” as “I want to have sex with you.”

I really enjoy sex with a guy I care for, but don’t really care to have sex with a guy I barely know.

But…the chemistry is “blistering.” How do you build such intense chemistry with a man you’re so lukewarm about and barely know? Once more, you’re contradicting yourself. You go from saying that the chemistry is blistering to saying that the phone conversations you have are merely an exchange of “pleasantries.”

I’m not putting him off because I don’t want him or like him. I’m just not ready for sex with him.

Well, I guess the first thing you need to do is figure out why, exactly, you’re not ready for sex with him. You’ll spend two days with him. You’ll sleep over. You’ll engage in heavy petting. So what’s the block? Because I don’t buy for a minute it’s that you aren’t sure how you feel about this man.   I’m going to throw this out there….do you think you canceled one of the dates to see if he would follow up and reschedule with you? You know..a test of his interest? I’m just asking you to consider this possibility.

The problem with tests is that more often than not they don’t work. Well, they do, but not in the way you think. Now, should things not work out, you will have a specific incident to refer to to explain why this guy never calls again. At least this way you’ll know instead of wondering what you did wrong or what happened. Now you have some control in the dissolution of this relationship. Which is better than torturing yourself, right?

Wrong.

You messed up here. You know it. The question is why. Sure, this guy might be understanding and get past this. Which would probably “prove” to you how invested he is. I think that’s what you’re looking for, whether you know it or not.You’re looking for proof. And this very well might be a test. Or you’re not really interested in having a relationship at all. We said in yesterday’s post that there are a slew of men who date who know, either consciously or unconsciously, that they don’t really want  a relationship. there’s a growing number of women who are doing the exact same thing.

The only way to save this situation is to be totally honest with him. Talk to him about it. Explain what you’re feeling. That is the only way to save this. But you’re going to have to willing to be honest with yourself first. Do you really want to try and salvage this? Because if you don’t, then stop wasting this man’s time. This letter was  a series of excuses and contradictions.

Filed Under: Dating, Sex, sexuality, Signs of Interest, Tests Tagged With: , , , , , ,

How Important Is Their Grammar?

May 16, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 29 Comments

Name: Dana
Age: 29
State:
Question: Moxie,

How much does bad grammar count against you online dating, whether on a profile or message? Does it show a complete lack of interest in the process, so avoid? I’m not talking about confusing you, you’re or there, they’re but just a purposeful lack of subject-verb agreement, etc.

 

I don’t think I’m the best person to ask this. I know that my subject-verb agreement isn’t the greatest. Therefore I’m pretty lax about things like this as long as it isn’t throughout the profile. If I have to go back and read something multiple times that’s a problem as well. Everybody should give their profiles a quick once and twice over. But even when you do that, sometimes we don’t catch simple mistakes. We’re too close to the subject matter, so we don’t see it.

Here and there, I assume it’s an accident. Sometimes you just forget what the subject was and you’re in mid-thought and you forget to re-read what precedes a certain statement. If it’s something that occurs throughout the profile, and the mistakes are glaring, I first wonder if the person’s native language isn’t English. I look for signs that they are not from the US. If there are none, I then conclude they are either uneducated in someway or just don’t care. In which case, I do not respond to them. Color me an elitist.

I also look past lack of capitalization and proper punctuation. Let’s face it, most people access these sites and other social media platforms via their phone. I’ve literally torn a hole in my space bar on my mobile because it’s hard to hit that lil’ button just right and the keypad buttons are so small.

What I don’t ignore are the abbreviations like u and r. To me, that’s just simple laziness and it doesn’t bode well for future interactions. It also makes me think that the person abbreviating those short words is lacking in intelligence in some way.

I have to say that when I see a profile that stands out from all the rest in terms of content and has perfect punctuation and grammar, I assume someone wrote the profile for them. I honestly believe that most people write these profiles up in a matter of a minutes and care very little about proper grammar. They just want to fill in those boxes and offer the max cap so they can move on to the next step of viewing profiles.

This, I think, is indicative to how people are feeling about online dating in general. Many folks are just unwilling to devote too much time or effort into polishing up their ad. They know it’s all about the photos. That and many people are just interested  to see what kind of a response rate their profile will garner. They don’t care. It’s all a crap shoot, really.

Do I think someone with a pristine profile is probably more invested? Yes. But I do not automatically assume that someone with some slip ups here or there isn’t.This feels like another test that ultimately tells us nothing about the person or prevents us from taking a chance.

Your thoughts?

 

Filed Under: Dating, Dating Skills, First Impressions, Online Dating Tagged With: , , , , ,

My Inner Fat Girl

May 14, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 29 Comments

Originally posted Jan 24th, 2010 – 34 Comments

New Response written May 15th, 2012

Name: lost |  Location: Vancouver , Washington |Question: Dear Moxie,

I am chronically single.  I’m a 30 year old female and I live a simple life.  i’m not complicated when it comes to likes and dislikes, i’m not into games, I have never even been given a gift by a man, ever, so clearly I’m no gold digger.  I have had 2 boyfriends and only one was serious about me and this was 10 years ago.  He cheated on me and no man has ever been faithful to me or kept me around long enough to find out if I’m worth keeping.

I am beginning to think something is seriously wrong with me.  I am overweight but not crazy and I recently lost 10 pounds.  Due to some health issues my weight has always fluctuated and I am not sure I can ever be skinny. But I can do all my best to be the healthiest best me I can be.

I recently had a man show serious interest in me or so I thought.  I wound up staying the night with him and I’m sure that was a huge mistake.  I saw him on a dating site after not hearing back from him, and he even told me how much he liked me.

I felt all my old wounds open back up again after this experience.  I believe I am pretty or at least cute.  I realize I’m overweight but I am proportionate and carry myself with pride.  I have a pleasant personality and many wonderful friends who find me to be funny and warm hearted.  I know I am not perfect but I’m not looking for someone perfect either.

I just wonder why I am unable to attract anyone at all.  I smile and laugh, I don’t party or get involved in drama, I try to further my life despite setbacks and hurdles.  I think I have a positive, optimistic outlook.  I spent quite a few younger years being depressed and for several years have been taking good care of being my own best friend.  I decided I would not let my life be so sad and I took control to make it better.

I have been stood up far more than my fair share of times so it can’t be that once in a while I make a poor choice and sleep with someone too soon, since sometimes I’m not even given a first date.  I have also been what I consider mildly abused.  I say mildly because I was never in any danger and I was never really harmed.  It was just not ok behavior from men but I’m only now seeing this.

I have been in councelling and learned a lot.  But I have yet to figure out why it is men treat me so poorly or wont even look my way.  Before this recent encounter (and I did like him very much), I had not been searching for anyone, I took myself off the market because I considered myself so undateable that the chances of getting hurt again were so high, I didn’t think I could go through being hurt again.  I’ve lived almost as if I don’t care at all about guys, never even flirting.  Now that I realize I’m no nun and this has been torture, I want to know why other women seem to have fun flirting, dating, meeting guys and eventually falling in love and I can’t even find someone to treat me like I’m human.

Why do I have such awesome family and friends who love me deeply, and I can make friends at the drop of a hat and always could, but I cannot for the life of me attract anyone even long enough to flirt, let alone date or marry?  I’m typically not even thinking poor me, I usually think, what can I do to change this?  What can I do to make life better?  What do I need to do to achieve my goals and dreams?  And then I go do those things!  But seeing this most recent man online looking for a long term relationship, when I was seriously interested and he said he liked me, now nothing, makes me believe the worst about myself.

Why am I so undateable? Is weight really that important when I take care of myself, I am clean, I am thoughtful, I dress the best I can afford? I have a big heart and would really take care of a man.  What gives?  Why am I stood up so much and why am  I left so quickly? I don’t even get clingy because I know that it drives men away, so I’m even aware and steer clear of that! Honestly are looks THAT important that a simple girl can’t date just because I don’t look like a magazine model? Is weight so important that I am undateable until I reach my goal weight? Should I give up on dating altogether unless I can weigh 125 pounds???|Age: 30

 

The other day, I linked to a story written by a woman who had been blown off by a guy. Apparently he was intimidated by her size. Despite his obvious assholeishness, the woman told herself that she and he could be friends. Fast forward a couple of days and she and the guy are texting and he asks her what she’s doing that day. She says she hadn’t even taken a shower yet, so she didn’t know. Which then in turn inspired this jackass to say that now he was fantasizing about her in the shower. If that weren’t bad enough, he then went on to tell her that he believed that if they had sex, she would probably make his penis look small.

That story made me dig through my the archives to find  this old post.

For a man to say to a woman that he believes her size will make his penis look small by comparison, he has to be seriously deluded to think that that wouldn’t be considered offensive. Which means he either is completely clueless or he didn’t care if he hurt her feelings. She already came back around once despite his initial obnoxious commentary. That told him that this was a woman he could dump on and she’d still come back for more.Women can be plus-size and have high self-esteem and pull very attractive – objectively or to them -  great guys. We’ve all seen it. But the self-esteem  is the key. If that doesn’t exist, you can be sure they will attract every cruel, self-serving asshat like the guy in the second woman’s story.

Why am I stood up so much and why am  I left so quickly?

Here’s why: because she’s overweight and picking the wrong guys. That is the answer, folks. It’s not pretty or sassy or cute.  That is the answer that the OP seeks. But nobody wants to tell her that. Not directly, at least. They’ll tell her that there’s a lid for every pot or that a man will love her for who she is inside. The latter is the truth. A man will love her for what’s in the inside. And on the outside.  He just might not be the guy she initially wants. Sadly, most people don’t want to hear that. They want to believe that they get a blue ribbon just for participating and that should be enough. It’s not.

I’ve spoken before of my experiences when I was overweight. There was the guy who called me “fun size.” And the guy who said that the reason he came so quickly was because, “I wasn’t the right size for him.” These experiences were humiliating and contributed to my decision to lose weight. There really is nothing like realizing that that guy who told you how beautiful and sexy you were was lying. He’ll have sex with you. But he won’t date you. When you have that epiphany and you make the connection between that and your weight, all you want to do is hide. Then you get angry. The you get motivated.To this day, when men tell me I’m sexy, I cringe inside. I fear that they’re unable to tell me I’m beautiful because they don’t think I am, so they tell me I’m sexy hoping that will be enough.  I’m at the point where I find the word “sexy” to be an insult. I wish I didn’t.  That’s my inner fat girl warning me that nobody really wants me so don’t get too cozy.

DMN likes to say do no harm. That also applies to the damage we can do to ourselves. Don’t put yourself  in positions to be shamed. The minute you see the first glimmer of someone shaming you, like the guy in the second woman’s story did, walk away. You didn’t invite that. That is not your fault. But if you continue to stick around, and you continue to experience treatment like this, then you are doing yourself harm. You are not helping yourself by running to your friends or a blog and telling everybody about the douchebag that called you fat. Or crazy. Or a loser. Or whatever. All that does is allow you to avoid why their comments really bothered you. Getting a bunch of friends to agree with you about how that guy was a tool is not a remedy for the problem. The problem is…why do you keep experiencing this particular scenario over and over. I have a theory about why bloggers make these private humiliation sessions public. I think we do it because, deep down, we want to be punished and shamed some more because we think we deserve it. That’s a vicious cycle.

I wanted a high quality guy. So I lost weight. It was either shed the pounds or try and force myself to be attracted to men I didn’t find desirable. A choice had to be made, so I made it. I wasn’t confident in my skin the way some other plus size women were. I wasn’t able to pull what they could pull. I probably could have had I not endured the self-abuse that I put myself through by insisting I could find someone to look past my weight. I refused to accept my audience and my self-esteem paid the price. I don’t want that for anybody.

Filed Under: Book, Dating, Dating & Weight, Douchey Guys, Red Flags, Rejection, Sex Tagged With: , , , ,

Winging It

May 14, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 16 Comments

There are a lot of services popping up recently that involve single men and women “hiring” a wingperson to attend functions or social gatherings with them as a way to meet the opposite sex.

While I can see the benefit of a same sex wingperson, would the concept still work if they are someone of the opposite sex? Would a single person be hurting their chances or helping them by having an attractive man or woman with them?

The basic concept of having a wingperson of the opposite sex is that it helps someone establish social proof. If he or she can get someone that outgoing and confident and attractive to hang out with them, they they must have something going for them, right? Sure. I agree with that to some extent. Where I think it can back fire is if those being cruised and wooed by the wingperson suspect that they aren’t “just a friend.” Someone might wonder why the wingperson, who is actively puffing up their partner in crime for the night, isn’t dating them themselves. Or wait. Maybe they did date. Uh oh. Still friends with an Ex? Sending out mysterious vibes can work. But this scenario would make me suspicious. Not good. Do you see how my mind works? I don’t think I’m alone in thinking this way.

I would also think that the rapport between the wingperson and their client would have to be – or at least feel – authentic in order for them to not trip off any wires of their intended targets.Let’s say you make a successful connection thanks to your wingperson. You start dating. Hey?? What happened to that friend of yours that was with you the night we met? How come I never see them around?

Sure, the wingperson can do whatever it takes to create the idea of a there being an actual friendship. They friend request you. Maybe they take photos of you and them together so you can post them on Facebook. It could work as long as the wingperson plays it on the DL.

I don’t know. It just all feels fraught with possible landmines.

Plus, if I met someone who was gushing about how awesome their single friend was omigod you just have to meet them, my first thought would be, “Uh, what’s wrong with this picture?” Call me paranoid all you like…but if two attractive people are out at a party or bar together, and they’re both single, I’m either not going to trust the person making all the introductions because I’ll assume they are just trying to be the “cool” friend. Or I’m going to assume that there is something critically flawed about their amazing single friend.

(I know. I’m way over thinking this. This is how my mind works. Sorry.)

As my friend B. told me yesterday, I require that people in my life be very high functioning in terms of their social aptitude. It’s a blessing and a curse, folks. I’m not a stickler for money, or social status, or even looks to some degree. But if someone made an interpersonal faux pas, I was less enthused. If I said, “Hey, let’s meet for a drink” that was the guy’s cue to say, “Sure, what night works for you?” If he said that it sounds like a good idea and sends me his email address and phone number and doesn’t suggest a night or make any real effort to schedule a meet up, I go from interested to meh. I don’t not meet him, but that certainly takes the bloom off the rose for me.  Worse for me were the people who just keep emailing and trying to engage in a prolonged conversations. I have no need for pen pals. 3 emails, set up date, done. If that isn’t achieved in 3 emails, I typically bail. I wasn’t not there to chit chat. In these situations I tell a guy to follow up with me when he knows his schedule. I do not reply to further messages.

Which gets us back to the original topic of social adeptness. I see the benefit in hiring someone to help you meet people. But if you struggle in social situations and don’t have great social skills, then what? You don’t bring your wingperson on the rest of your dates, do you? The confidence you had with your wingperson probably had a lot to do with why you were able to get someone’s number or email. But if you don’t know what to do next, then what’s the point?

Okay…second topic that is somewhat related to the first one.

You often hear people lament about the fact that someone’s profile had a picture of the person posed with a member of the opposite sex. Is this really such a bad idea?

Maybe a picture where you didn’t crop out the other person is a bad idea. But what if you were to strategically crop it, making it clear that there was someone of the opposite sex in the photo with you?

Sure, we hate the idea of seeing our possible competition. It feels threatening and disrespectful. What I want to know is how many people truly dismiss someone because of a photo like this on their profile. I also want to know, if we’re all going by The Honor Code, whether or not seeing a photo like that actually motivated you to contact someone.

My guess is that men and women have very different experiences with this. I think women who post photos with guys  have better luck than the reverse. But that’s just my guess.

What has your experience been?

Filed Under: Awkward, Dating, Dating In a Big City, Dating Over 40, Dating Realities, Dating Skills, Meeting Men, Meeting Women, Online Dating Tagged With: , ,

Why Ask Why? If They’re Not Interested, They’re Not Interested

May 13, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 14 Comments

Name: Marcie
State: NY
Question:  Why do some men look at a woman’s profile multiple times but not contact them? I’ve noticed that several of the men I contact on Match and Okcupid will view my profile a couple of times but not message me back. Why do they do that?
Age: 37

 

 

Well, there are probably a number of reasons for that. Such as:

 

1. When they initially get your message they are in a rush so they take  a quick  look and then return to the profile later when they have more time.

2. They accidentally click on your thumbnail photo in their inbox, which then takes them to your profile.

3. They’re really picky and on the fence about whether or not to reply.

4. They’re intimidated somehow or feel unsure if whether you and they are a match.

The actual reason doesn’t matter. The question isn’t why aren’t they interested. They question is why do you care?

The unfortunate truth is that not everybody on those sites is there to meet people. The trick is learning how to spot them so you don’t get burnt out. Most people tell you exactly who they are and what they want, even without realizing it. You have to learn how to listen.

I can remember noticing one guy frequently appearing on my Visitors list. He would view my profile every few weeks for a couple months. His profile made him seem affable and funny and seeking a relationship.  I finally emailed him and tried to start a conversation. By the second email he was asking me to meet that night. I said no and wished him luck. My profile is pretty “relationship only” in its tone. I think that was why he never contacted me. I wasn’t looking for what he was looking for so he didn’t waste his time. He knew his audience.

The more curious ones are the people you don’t contact or view who peek at your profile over and over again but never email you. I get a bit squeamish wondering just what they’re doing. Maybe they’re working up the nerve to reach out. Maybe they’re masturbating. Who knows? What you know is that these people are not contacting you for some reason. Therefore they shouldn’t take up any of your mental disk space.

Which brings me to my next point. Let’s talk about this need many of us have to focus on the people who don’t want us or refuse to let go of someone who showed moderate interest.

I got an email a few weeks ago from a woman who attended one of our speeddating events. She didn’t get any matches. She followed up with us and asked us to check and see if her matches were correct. If they were, she wanted to know if any of the men mentioned why they didn’t choose her. I said we had no feedback from the men and had no concrete explanations. She asked me for my opinion. Having never met her, I didn’t know the reason. Though I did have a possible answer. I looked her up in our event database to try and get more info. My suspicions were correct. She was in the higher end of the age range for that event. Literally the maximum age that could attend. I knew that was a big reason why she didn’t get any replies. But I didn’t tell her that. I comped her into another event I felt was more appropriate for her age range. If she had a better understanding of her audience, she wouldn’t have attended that event in the first place. Now she’s propelling down the shame spiral unnecessarily. If she goes to the next older age range she’ll probably be the Belle of The Ball. Isn’t that better than wasting a sunny afternoon thinking that nobody wants you?

I sometimes get emails from people who say that someone they met at a speeddating event never replied to their message or stopped replying mid-conversation. I’m often asked to follow up with these people to make sure they knew that someone had tried to contact them. These people want to know why the person ceased replying.

Obviously, I have no first hand knowledge of any of these people. I can’t give a definitive answer as to why they don’t reply. All I know is that they didn’t. That’s enough. Why were you that one person the Often Replier didn’t respond to?  Who says you actually are? You have no idea how or why that title was even assigned to their profile. Maybe it’s a wonky algorithem. Maybe they only get 2 emails a week and happen to have replied to all of those people and they’ve only been on the site a month. Why knows?

Why did that person from the speeddating event not follow up with you? Because they probably heard from their first choice. And you can be sure there was a first choice. Or maybe they use outdated email platforms that block and filter everything. (No, seriously. Ditch that AOL, Hotmail, Juno and Yahoo address and get on Gmail, stat. I’m telling you that you’re not getting most of your messages.) It could be that someone contacted them first and they didn’t want to juggle. The reasons don’t matter. All you need to know is that they aren’t interested. If they were, they’d go out with you.

To date successfully, you have to learn to shrug off the people who don’t return the interest. These kind of Faders and Peekers are now typical and common behavior. You can’t get all caught up in trying to solve some non-mystery. You end up wasting valuable energy and time.

 

 

 

Filed Under: Am I Shallow?, Dating, OKCupid, Online Dating, Red Flags, Rejection, Servicey! Tagged With: , , ,

Full Disclosure: How Much Is Too Much or Too Little?

May 12, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 27 Comments

Private Man recently emailed me and asked for feedback on a reader question.  Here’s the scenario:

A man met a woman online and arranged a date. In the hours before the arranged meet up, the woman asked the man for his last name. She explicitly told him that she was asking so she could Google him. The guy said he felt freaked out, but gave her his last name anyway.

He wanted to know what the real reason was for the woman’s admission and request and how to circumvent this issue in the future.

In my mind, there’s the “real” reason and the real reason why she would want his last name.

The “real” reason, of course, is to Google the guy and do a little re-con work. The “real” reason, in my opinion, was to force familiarity with the guy and attempt to take a power position in the relationship. It’s another test. If he gives her his last name, then he “really” likes and trusts her. Whatever info she can gather is just a bonus. Most people Google their dates. (I don’t. I find it futile.) Fewer people actually tell someone that they are going to do so.

Someone who tells you that they will Google you is no different than the person who tells you they won’t sleep with you on a first date. They’re looking for  specific reaction. If a woman tells a man she’s not going to sleep with him, she wants to see how he’s going to respond. In her mind, if he stops showing interest in her then he was just looking to get laid.  Same goes for a woman who announces to a guy that she’s going to Google him. It’s an ineffective test women use to gauge just how sincere someone is. (Yes, I know. “Safety shamer!”) As with most tests, all it does is provide someone with a false sense of security. And what happens when you function under a false sense of security? You get bamboozled. Ironic, right?

The more something becomes less common or obsolete, like calling someone to ask them out, the more important certain people want it. Fewer people are handing out their last names to their online dates. So, of course, more people are now insisting upon that information before setting up a date. It’s another way for them to prove to themselves that this person is sincere and genuinely interested. Don’t take it personally that someone doesn’t welcome you into their online home before they have a date or two under their belt. Most people offer the information if asked. Just understand that by asking for specific information, people will assume you are using it for one thing. Most people won’t care. That is, unless you tell them outright what you’re doing. That’s when people get unsettled. Not because they fear you’ll uncover some deep dark secret but because nobody likes knowing that someone is Google/Facebook Creeping them. My friend has an appropriate analogy for this situation.

It is like worrying that ghosts are watching you while you sleep.  It’s a problem of your own imagination.

Accept that people do it and that we are now in a sate of a “new” normal in this regard. As I’ve said before, I think the whole concept of doing research on a date or someone you’re dating to be unnecessary. Creeping on someone like a new date or an Ex, as long as it stays within the lines, is only destructive to the person doing the creeping. Accept that it’s not atypical and just be mindful of it and let it go. We’re all mini-celebrities now. People like to watch and judge and analyze. That’s just how it is now.

You do a background check on someone you’re going to marry or somehow tie yourself to legally or financially. You don’t do background checks on people you’re just dating. If you sense someone is lying or not who they say they are, walk away. That’s it. You ask them questions, you pay attention to inconsistencies and you don’t ignore your gut. It’s very simple. These horror stories we hear about scam artists and predators almost always involve glaring red flags that people overlooked or ignored. Yes, there are the cases here and there where someone ended up being a sociopath and doing serious mental and physical harm. But those cases are the exceptions to the rule and not the rule. A sociopath can and will sneak under the radar, undetectable by even a background check. Google will not protect you from those people.

To answer the query about how to navigate this type of request before meeting someone, I’m not really sure you can. If you tell someone you don’t want to give out specific info, you’ll look like you’re hiding something. If someone isn’t satisfied with the fact that you’ve given them your phone number before meeting, my guess is that person might have some trust issues and therefore end up being a handful. It’s best to disengage right then. If you really like them, then give them the additional details they request.  The fact that someone is asking you for more info should tell you one thing: they don’t trust you. Maybe they’ve been burnt in the past or maybe they’re just really needy or maybe there is something about your behavior that is tripping off an internal wire somewhere. Who knows? Only you can decide if that person is worth getting to know. If you are someone who is hyper-private or Google-averse, I have to say that online dating probably isn’t a great way to meet people.  So either accept that this is now the new normal or stop dating.

Giving a phone number or email address alone is usually enough to give the person all the info they need to hit up Google.  This is why I think the woman’s request was a red herring. She had his number. All she had to do was do  reverse look up of that to get his last name. She wasn’t afraid he was going to abduct her or con her out of cash. She just wanted to see what he’d say so she could tell herself she stood out from his other options.

 

Filed Under: Awkward, Dating, Facebook, Red Flags, Social Media, Social Rules of Dating, Stalker

Have You Ever Been Someone’s Experiment?

May 10, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 28 Comments

This will be a two parter. I was reading this post today and I was reminded of a conversation I had had about 4 years ago. The guy was someone I had met at a networking event. We exchanged numbers and set up a date for a few nights later. We ended up going to his gym and he taught me some boxing basics. (Fun date, I have to say.) Throughout the date, he brought up my blog. A lot. Enough that it made me uncomfortable. As he walked me to a cab, he told me that “if I wanted to” I could call him a specific alias when I wrote about him. That’s right. When. Not if. When.

I was an experiment to him. And, I’m sure, to many other men at that point in time. Compared to the story I linked to, I got off easy. The “honesty” in that guy’s words made me furious at the both of them. Him for saying it. Her for sharing it. People like that guy don’t deserve the additional attention.

In my scenario, the guy thought he was somehow being “different” by giving me permission to blog about him. What he was actually doing was revealing his true intentions. In the story written by the other blogger, the guy was playing the “honesty” card in the hopes it would score him some points. To top it off, he did the “you would be my first, baby” thing. Sure.Sure she would.

This happens to a lot of different people for many different reasons. They have something about them that is seen as “exotic” or “unique.” Maybe it’s their race or a specific fetish or proclivity. Or it’s their body type or looks. Whatever it is, the attraction isn’t based on who the person is. It’s based on the opportunity or experience that person might provide.

It took me a very long time to realize that being someone’s experiment wasn’t a good thing. It’s not a compliment. Once you realize it, it’s actually quite hurtful and embarrassing. Why embarrassing? Because we foolishly believed that that person liked us despite certain traits. Not because of them. Dating someone because they’re Asian or African American or Caucasian isn’t really an acceptable reason. If you have a specific fetish, then seek out people who are okay with being identified by that particular fetish. Don’t bamboozle them with the news after the fact. And don’t pretend like you don’t actually have a fetish and that there was something special about them that made you want to dip your toe into that particular pool. In short, don’t use people like that.

One more thing. If you do decide to take someone of a particular race, faith, orientation, occupation or body type for a spin, don’t you dare ever admit that you couldn’t cross that line and take things to another level because  of that characteristic.

Now let’s get into the very delicate subject of whether or not you tell someone that you aren’t attracted to them should they ask why you don’t want to see them again. Personally, I don’t see a need for that unless the person clearly believes they look better than they do or you were mislead in some way. For example, the men and women are are so sure they look ten years younger than they are and say so in their profiles. Or the overweight people who describe themselves as curvy, average or athletic.

My friend K. sent me a profile of a woman from Match and asked me what I thought. She had about 12 photos. 10 of them were from the shoulders up. The other 2 were clearly taken a good 5 years ago. Her face in those photos compared to the head shots made it quite clear that she had put on a noticeable amount of weight. She chose “Average” as her body type. He decided to go out with her. When they met she was, as I predicted, quite heavier than the 2 full body shots she had posted. He was a gentleman and was polite and sat and had brunch with her and paid the bill. She contacted him the next day and said she’d love to go out again. He replied and told her that he thought she was very nice but that he didn’t feel they were a match. She wanted to know why.

“Tell her” I said. “Tell her so she doesn’t have to go through more of these experiences.”

He told her he felt her pictures were misleading. She asked how so. (Jesus, take a damn hint!) He said he felt she didn’t look like her photos. She said nobody had ever told her that. He said he wasn’t trying to be hurtful but felt he should be honest. She said he was rude. He stopped replying. She sent another text suggesting they give it another go. He said he wasn’t attracted to her. She stopped messaging him.He didn’t have to go further and tell her he found her overweight. She should have picked up on his subtle hints. Reading Social Cues is a something people have to make sure are in their Dating Toolboxes. Trust me. It will help you avoid many, many awkward conversations and situations like the ones discussed here.

Nobody likes being backed in to a corner like that. But sometimes honesty, and not diplomacy, is required. Honesty shouldn’t be used to shame someone into leaving you alone. It should be employed when you genuinely want to help someone.

Thoughts?

Filed Under: Awkward, Bad Dates, Dating, Dating & Blogging, Dating & Weight, Dating Skills Tagged With: , , , , ,

How Come He Can’t Get More Women To Like Him?

May 10, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 43 Comments

Name: Andrew
Age: 40
State: New Jersey
Question: I’m a 40 year-old single guy living in Hoboken, NJ. I have a great group of friends but have had to rely on online dating for almost all of my dating over the past 2 1/2 years.

My dilemma is as follows. Over this time period, I’ve been using match.com on and off. I’ve managed a couple of short term relationships (2-4 months), and dated many women for short periods of time (many one and done dates, several strings of 2-4 dates which didn’t turn into anything).

What’s been happening is that almost all of the women I’ve dated have been women who’ve contacted me. This isn’t a bad thing except that it seems to go in ebbs and flows with long periods of inactivity. Because of this, I’ve spent a lot more time recently emailing women rather than waiting for them to come to me. I recently started using your approach I book marked your article about online dating emails, but don’t seem to be getting anywhere (1 response in about 25).

What I’ve noticed is that 90-95% of the profiles I comes across are so boring that I can’t even find 1-2 decent questions to ask in order to get a reply back. What I want to know is how does a single guy weed through countless profiles that are almost all exactly alike except for the pictures? I’m sure I’m not the only guy out there experiencing this issue and I wanted to know if you and your readers could shed some light on this for me.

 

The first thing you need to understand is that most people’s profiles seem boring because we look at so many that they all sound the same. Don’t expect to be wowed when you check out someone’s ad. You should expect to hear the same things that every man or woman says. Don’t focus so much on the profile text because much of that is manufactured hoo hah. Focus on the photos. Ask a question about one of the photos rather than something they say in their profile. That picture was chosen for a reason.

All you should be looking for when you read profiles are signs that they’re going to be difficult. Boring is actually a good thing in this regard. You don’t want a woman or a man who tells you they are:

  • Sarcastic/sassy
  • Independent
  • Outspoken/speaks their mind

Also avoid the people who:

  • Have disclaimers
  • Self-Identify or include inflammatory or provocative statements in their ads
  • Challenge your masculinity or femininity or somehow demand that you prove to them how you are worthy of their attention
  • State upfront that they’re “giving this another try”
  • Tell you how busy they are or how much they work

Weed those people out. When you accept that about 50% of the people on these sites are in no way, shape or form healthy, easy to get along with or available, you’ll be better off. Who cares if they’re attractive? They’re emotional black holes. Avoid. The sooner you embrace what your audience actually is, the easier online dating will become. I’m 43, a size 10 and don’t want children. Guess how limited my options are? So be it. I don’t email anybody that says they want kids, or who state specific opinions/preferences concerning body type/weight, or aren’t interested in dating anybody over 38-40. I don’t reply or message anybody I’m not genuinely excited to speak with or meet.  That means I send fewer emails and get even fewer responses. It also means I have fewer dates.The up side of that? I don’t careen down a shame spiral after a date and I increase my chances of making genuine and lasting connections.

I recently read something about online dating that really put things in perspective.

There are two types of people who do online dating. The people who send messages and the people who receive them.

Everybody wants to be the one who receives messages. Everybody wants to believe that they are in high demand and that they some how stand out. The reality is that very, very few of us actually are or do. There’s that 10%-20% of people who get all the messages. Everybody is emailing them, which is why those people rarely respond. The rest of us? We’re lucky to get 3-5 messages a month, and they’re rarely from anybody that interests us. The Senders are often perceived (incorrectly so) as the ones that nobody wants.

The more messages you send, the higher your lack of response rate will be. That’s just simple math. Getting one reply out of 25 isn’t great. It should be more like 1 reply for every 10-15 messages or so. So the OP is probably messaging women out of his league. You’re smart to respond to those people that email you first. At least you know there’s moderate interest.  I’m not saying you shouldn’t be taking initiative. You should. You just need to be smart about it so as to avoid having your self-esteem take a beating. You know in your gut if someone is probably fielding multiple offers. Don’t contact too many of those people at the same time. Spread the love over a course of many days or weeks.

Pay attention to who views your profile. Contact those people. Many times people will read a profile and come across something that makes them think they would not be a good fit for you. That’s why they don’t respond. Reach out to them.

If you’re using Match, employ the Wink feature. Wink at people you’re interested in meeting. Yes, guys, there’s a good chance that some of those women will be all, “A Wink??? How Lazy!!” Whatever, ladies. You keep counting all those winks you ignore. That should make those lonely nights more tolerable. If the person doesn’t carry any grudges about Winks, and they’re interested, they’ll reply. The Wink feature is good because coming up with a witty or engaging email time and time again can be exhausting. Don’t abuse the feature, but certainly use it. If it didn’t work, then the sites would disable the feature. Ladies, you should be Winking as well. Mix it up a bit. The point of using this feature is to stave off Online Dating Burnout. The more effort you put into a message combined with the fewer responses you get is going to frustrate you. (PS? Hey, @OKCupid? You need a Wink feature.) Also utilize the Favorites feature and make sure to select the option that lets the person knows you added them to your favorites list.

Next, don’t send more than 2 messages per day. Do NOT go on messaging tears and send out several emails in one sitting. For one, you’re going to screw yourself if multiple people respond. You’re going to end up blowing someone off, and that’s not fair to them. For two, it’s a lot easier to digest and accept the few responses you do get if you spread it out over several days.

I know many people prefer to browse profiles anonymously, but you should absolutely make sure that someone you’d like to meet can see if you looked at their ad.

The goal is to get in front as many people as possible and get noticed. You can do that without sending messages. I’m convinced that the lack of replies people get to their intro email is the main contributor to ODB (Online Dating Burnout.)  If you’re not having fun and enjoying the process, you’re doing it wrong.

Filed Under: Date Like a Man, Dating, Loneliness, Meeting Men, Meeting Women, Online Dating, Red Flags, Rejection

Beware The Man With a Savior Complex

May 9, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 24 Comments

Name: AJ
Age: 59
State: Illinois
Question: I’d like to call this “The guy who wanted a Roommate With Benefits”. I have never ran into a guy like this until now and I thought it might be interesting sharing with your readers.

First I have to preface this with I’m a 59 year old female. Unemployed Art Director, freelancing. Been married twice, 10 and 16 years respectively. Had 3 very bad relationship experiences in the last 10 years of being single again. One resulted in catching HSV.  So I was not looking.

Okay, I met a guy last year, early fall. I was out with friends at a meet-up gathering.  He introduced himself as Joe. But his name tag had a different name and I remembered his pix from the sign-up list and he looked nothing like that. Anyway he hung out with our group the whole evening. A few days later I get an email from him through the group’s email site, stating I ditched him when he went to the bathroom at the end of the evening. And gave me this phone number in case I felt like getting together sometime. Yup I did ditch him. Nice guy and all, but, had just broken up with his girlfriend of 12 years, never been married and was 9 years younger. Plus thought it best not to date a man from Meet-up considering my situation.

Well, he pursued me for about 4 months. Sometimes I’d say yes, sometimes I’d say no to going out. Most of the time I was shooing him away. Finally one night I had to drop the bomb on him. He took the news quite well and asked if we could see each other again. I said sure. He texted me the next day and we made a date for that Sunday. Then he canceled. I was pissed and hurt. Waited about a week and I texted that dating was out of the question. He asked if we could be just friends and hang-out. Sure, not really taking it seriously.

I finally gave in to dating him after another 2 months of him pursuing me in the name of friendship. We never had intercourse (we slept together and had sex) for the three months we were together, he never introduced me as his girlfriend to any of the few friends I met. One even brought up his ex in front of me one night. Asking me how she was. So I asked Joe if anyone including his family knew about me. His answer was no. I had asked him prior if it was okay for me to introduce him as my boyfriend and if we were in a relationship. He said yes.

Other red flags…constantly offered to help pay for my mortgage, offering to buy me a house close to him, asking me to live with him several times, offering to start a business with me. Really guy? All this during the three months we dated? What’s the hurry?

He was constantly checking out and smiling at any attractive women he saw when we were out, then denied it. The last straws were him telling me this. He and a girlfriend he had been living with for 10 years were not getting along. He had been sleeping on the sofa for about a year before he moved out and into what had been his girlfriend for the last 12 years. Excuse me? That’s considered cheating in a sense. I mean when did he start dating girl number two? Plus, two days later he calls me and asks if I want to go on a go-see for a building he was interested in buying. Then brings up the living together thing after two days earlier we both admitted we didn’t love each other. Are you for real? The next day my friend called and said he saw him on a hook-up sex site. I checked. There he was…The End.

I picked up what was the few things I had at his house and returned his key. He had left nothing at mine. He was there only a couple of times. Which was another red flag. Too inconvenient for him. Few other ridiculous things…I love watching those wedding reality shows. So he offers to go with me to try on wedding dresses? He was still paying for half the mortgage for his last girlfriend? Offering to move back to New York with me to help my mom out? Was he really going to give up his fantastic job for the city of Chicago? Really guy.

Why does any of this even matter?? I mean, other than you clearly are enjoying all the drama and ups and downs?

It’s as if, in your mind, it’s perfectly okay for you to be all over the place about this but he’s not. Hon, you’re both kind of a mess. And not because you have HSV, because that isn’t an issue. You’re choosing to walk around like you have a Scarlet A stitched into your forehead. Cut the woe is me stuff out. There are people out there dying of cancer. HSV? Not a big deal. You’re a mess because you have “victim” painted all over you. That’s why this guy chose you to hone in on and woo.

I had asked him prior if it was okay for me to introduce him as my boyfriend and if we were in a relationship. He said yes.

Okay. For the record? This does not mean he’s actually your boyfriend. This is not an official agreement to be exclusive. You asked if you could introduce him as your boyfriend. He said sure. He did not pledge to be exclusive. He merely allowed you to do what so many women do and put a label on the relationship to ease their minds. Men know that women just want to use the word “boyfriend” when out with their female friends.It means nothing to them.

He likes being the Savior. That’s his schtick. He finds women whom he feels need his support and attention and money and he showers them with it. It makes him feel good about himself. The bummer about these guys is that they don’t actually want the woman to get better. They want her to stay vulnerable and weak and dependent upon him. That’s the hook. He means none of what he says. He will never follow through on any of this. He wants you to get invested and attached and need him that much more. It’s a sick and twisted co-dependent relationship. Healthy, mature relationships are about encouraging each other to be the very best they can be.

You keep expressing your mistrust as though you actually believe it. You don’t. If you did, you’d have never gotten involved with this guy. You’re saying, “Really?” as though you have his number. You do. You just wish you didn’t because you want for all of this to be real.You can’t make this decision on your own. You’re looking to us to tell you either he’s for real or he’s a phony because you can’t decide one way or another on your own.

Let him find some other wounded bird. Focus on making yourself stronger so you don’t fall prey to these types again. Learn how not to trust the wrong people and make better choices. But most importantly, learn to have more conviction and faith in your decisions and trust your instincts more. The reason why you trust the wrong people is because you don’t trust yourself enough to make the right decisions.

Filed Under: Dating, Dating & STDs, Dating In a Big City, Dating Over 40, Sex, Shackin' Up, To Settle or Not To Settle Tagged With: , , , , ,

Is It Wrong for a Man To Challenge a Woman?

May 8, 2012 By Andthatswhyyouresingle 28 Comments

 

Interesting article over at The Frisky about “negging.”

His teeny little profile picture was cute. He was the right age range and city. But when I opened the online dating message from this random dude, this is what he said:

Isn’t feminism a little obsolete? Men and women are equal nowadays. In fact, the balance is tipped in your favor.

Of all the things for a man to comment upon in my profile, he chose to kinda-insulted me by calling my belief system “obsolete”? I rolled my eyes. I hit delete. Another one bites the dust.

I’d been “negged.”

 

I have a different take on this. I actually think the guy was trying to make conversation by challenging her about something she mentions in her profile. The definition of “negging”, according to the Urban Dictionary, is:

Low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.

Therefore, to me, this was not a case of negging. This was a case of a woman being askedabout something she included in her profile. The guy may have intentionally been trying to insult her. Or he was trying to engage her in a spirited back and forth. But I don’t think he was “negging” her. I think this has now become a go to explanation for why  a man might not immediately jump to effusive ass kissery when trying to woo a woman.

We see this all the time. We read statements in someone profile that pretty much BEG for a response. They are either blatantly inflammatory statements or they involve hot button issues like religion, sexuality or politics. My personal feeling is that people include these bytes because they want to be noticed or acknowledged for those particular thoughts or opinions.  What they don’t want to do is have to defend their stance. Which, to me, comes off as inauthentic.

If I mentioned in my profile that I believed in heaven, and someone emailed me and asked me (without being rude) why or suggested they didn’t believe the same, I’d reply. If it’s important enough for the person to include certain beliefs or ideologies in their profile, they should be prepared to defend them. Unless, of course, the person identifying themselves in a way that they know is provocative is doing so just to get attention. If they’re going to write anybody off who tries to debate their publicly stated opinions, then maybe they should take such points out of their profile. You won’t get as much attention, you say? Oh, alright. Someone can challenge a point and still respect whomever they are engaging. It isn’t always an attempt to be combative or insulting or degrading.

When looking through profiles, I tend to avoid the vocal self-identifiers. If a man said he was a Men’s Rights Activist, or that he didn’t want to hear from anybody that wasn’t Democrat or Republican, or brings up Occupy Wall Street, or talks about their spanking fetish, I’m clicking the back browser. I have no  desire to date a rabble rouser. They’re attention seekers. They want you to argue with them. They want you to ask them about their problems, fetishes and passions. They also want you to give them a reason to disqualify you because they don’t really want a relationship. They just think they do. They’re spinning their wheels on those sites trying to see how much attention they can get or so they can have all their negative opinions about women confirmed.

Now, of course, “negging” is a real technique. Like the author, I believe it’s a horrible way to try and get a woman’s attention and I think it works on a specific type of woman. I just don’t agree that this was an example of “negging.” I think the author brought something up in her profile with the intention of getting attention from it. She just didn’t get the attention she wanted. What if he had replied and mentioned spanking or something sexual?  How much should we bet that he’d still be labeled a wanker?

Look, there are many words that are immediate boner killers for men. “Feminist” is one of them. It’s not that they don’t respect a woman who identifies as a feminist. Nor does it mean they don’t believe in the fundamental principles that are the cornerstones of feminism. Where most men become super-cautious is when a woman announces – like in a dating profile – that she identifies as a feminist. To many men, dating such a woman will involve a series of ongoing arguments and ‘intellectual discussions.” They envision a frequent battle of wills. That’s unfortunate and inaccurate, of course. But that’s the typical internal reaction that a man has. A woman is better off showing how she’s a feminist than just stating she’s a feminist. It’s like when people talk about being into polyamorous relationships. They’ll probably have more luck simply stating that they’ve engaged in relationships where they had two partners that shared them rather than saying, “I’m a poly!” Show. Don’t tell. Showing makes certain things sound less intimidating, confusing or scary.

Personally, I think a lot of women like to identify as feminist because it’s a good defense. Use sex for attention? Oh, you’re a feminist, so that’s okay. Perpetually single? Oh, you’re a feminist, so that’s okay.

Let’s not get carried away and start assuming that any man who doesn’t automatically agree with us or who challenges us is somehow being disrespectful. This is one of those areas where I really feel like certain self-identifying feminists are being inconsistent. If you want to be respected and admired for your mind, then what is wrong with a man who tries to engage you in a debate?

Isn’t that what we want?

 

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Filed Under: Article Roundup, Awkward, Bad Dates, Dating, Dating & Blogging, Dating & Communicating, Dating Skills, Game, Online Dating Tagged With: , , ,
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