In Dating, Does Water Truly Seek Its Own Level?

Name: Clarissa
Age: 25
City: boston
State: massachusetts
Comment: I have been in a relationship with this guy for 3 months. We were together before but we broke up. Now we decided to get back together and that our feelings are still there. We tell each other that we love each other and we check up on each other. But my only issue is that he is really needy. He always needs me to do something for him and it gets annoying.I don’t like when people are very needy especially when they have a job or the proper resources and they feel that you have to help them with everything. He is also very controlling and whenever I fuss he gets really mad and tells me to stop acting different. Which I’m not, I am just speaking my mind. Now he is really listening and trying more. but it won’t be long before he goes back to being the same way. He is always partying and at his friends house. And I can only see him on his time. Like if I go somewhere he has to know with who and where. Or he will just randomly pick a day to come over my house. I hate it. Every time I tell him I am about to leave or i start to pull away or call less he starts begging and saying sorry or saying how much he misses me. It’s like how many times can you say sorry. I’m starting to get tired of him. And even though I love him these things are pushing me to the edge. One day he called me out of nowhere and said babe where are you. I want to see you, and meet your family. I asked him if he was OK because he wasn’t into meeting my family for a short time in our relationship. After that day he has become very clingy. Two days after he was sad about something and I gave him advice and talked to him. And he wouldn’t let me go to sleep. He kept calling me saying he couldn’t go to sleep without talking to his babe. Then the next morning he just kept texting me all day and being loving. Which he does. No lie. And then after that day he went back to his old self. I feel like he is afraid of commitment. And he is backing off a little out of fear. But what do I know. What are your honest thoughts? Because I am on my last straw.and i really want to be with him but how more can you take.

You two are clearly incompatible. You have very different personalities and thresholds for certain behavior. So much so that I’m trying to figure out what you saw in each other in the first place.

I remember be at a happy hour with co-workers back when I worked a regular 9 to 5 job. One of the guys was saying how most people were average looking. Or as he referred to them, “a solid 5 or 6.” He pointed out a couple of women at the bar and assigned them a number on his sliding scale of hotness. Then he said, “My girlfriend is average. I’m a little above average.” There went my belief that every man found their girlfriend or wife beautiful. My stomach developed a knot thinking that, if he made such an obnoxious comment publicly, what the hell did he say privately. Or worse…to her face.

I had met his girlfriend a few times and did often wonder what the attraction was. As much as I hated to admit it, he was a very good looking – if arrogant -  guy. Lookswise he could have scored a woman who was more objectively “hot.” But the real confusion came to their personalities and lifestyles. They seemed like polar opposites in every possible way. The point that stuck out to me most is that he was so disciplined when it came to what he ate and working out and she was a little overweight and out of shape. She had actually expressed insecurity about her body another time we had been together socializing. I imagine it must have been difficult to be struggling with your own body image issues as your partner fastidiously stuck to a diet and work out regime. I toyed with the idea that he enjoyed passive aggressively torturing her with his fixation on his body. That’s something that has always puzzled me: how does someone so focused on their own fitness reconcile with being with someone who doesn’t share the same mind set? Could it be that there really was something psychological at work there? A type of gaslighting, perhaps?

It wasn’t until many, many years later as I reflected on that pairing did it start to make sense to me. I wondered if he preferred a woman who was non-threatening. Was his ego too fragile to endure having it challenged? Is that, like, a real thing? Was his relationship an example of water seeking its own level?

I think that sometimes attraction has nothing to do with the physical and everything to do with the mental. Subconsciously – or maybe in some cases even consciously – we seek out people who won’t intimidate us or make us feel inadequate. Or who make us feel needed. Or who make us feel superior. And so on.

My point, OP, is that even to the casual observer, your relationship doesn’t appear to be working. It seems the obvious answer is to break up. I would encourage you to ask yourself what you really found so attractive about this guy in the first place. Is it possible that his needy, weak behavior somehow compliments your domineering and, well, cold demeanor? Maybe you are with him because he’s someone who, because of his own limitations,  accepts you as is?

Just something to consider.

 

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Sexy Isn’t A Compliment & Sarcastic Isn’t Attractive

Name: E
Comment: I’m new to online dating, and I wanted to know how flirty should you be on emails?

So far I’ve had a couple of messages from men lead into them saying that I’m sexy. In person, I would have a flirty response that wouldn’t be taken too seriously but would let them know that I was interested; however, online, it seems difficult to relay that without insinuating if we me meet, there will be sex.

Also, I’m finding it difficult to translate who I am (witty/sarcastic) online. In one case, I made a joke and it ended with me apologizing because they thought I meant something else; it was a debacle of an exchange.  Can you provide a scenario/sample flirty response?

Also, am I right to assume that if I’m called sexy without much banter that their sole purpose is sex? I would buy “attractive” or “pretty” but “sexy” seems to pour it on.

Thanks for your advice!
Age: 30
City: Jacksonville
State: FL

 

There are two types of men that tell a woman they just met that she is sexy.

Type One: The socially awkward guy who thinks that complimenting the looks of a woman they just met is appropriate. In my book, it’s not.

Type Two: The guy who, as a male friend says, “just wants to get right to it.” The use of the word sexy is intention and meant to get you thinking in a sexual way.

Take a look at the comments on this thread over at XOJane. Now, this woman pretty much admitted she’s a trainwreck when it comes to dating. Yet look at how many White Knights jump in to tell her how hot she is. Yes, she’s attractive. But she could have said she likes to strap bombs to her chest and walk into playgrounds and these guys would still be all up in her business about how gorgeous she was. Those guys use compliments to get on her good side. It smacks of trying too hard.

Personally, if a man addressed me as sexy, or commented on how sexy I was in the first few initial emails, I’d bail. That is, unless I knew with great certainty that I wanted to have sex with him and therefore opened that door for him to walk through. Then I’d go along to get along.  I’d reply with something demure like, “Aww. That made my day. Thanks! So, how about [subject change.]” But those cases are rare. The guys who know how to play the game don’t typically go there. The ones who don’t, well, they do. Since I’m not a fan of being involved with men who wear training wheels, I usually just stop responding or suddenly come up with a reason why I ‘m “taking time off from online dating.” Then I just block him. Guys who go the “sexy” route just seem juvenile and inexperienced to me. It’s a delicate dance, and if a man is going to need me to lead that early, I have no time for him. Then there’s the fact that these men see nothing wrong with sexualizing and objectifying a stranger. No, I don’t take it as a compliment that you think I have beautiful calves or a hot mouth. Nor do I need you, Internet Stranger, to enlighten me on all the ways my physical appearance is arousing.

So, E., to summarize, I’d ignore men who go this route with you via email. Not worth your time. They’ll either require a great deal of handling or they’re shit testing trying to gauge the level of difficulty involved with getting you into bed. or they’re just lying because they’re desperate. Who wants to be with someone like that?

I would also pay close attention to the messages (both the written ones and the underlying ones) that you send in your profile and email communications. Often I hear women talk about how guys say something dripping with innuendo “out of the blue.” Mmmm….no. I mean, yes, some dudes are just that boorish and stupid. But just as often the woman has said something she knows will be taken in a sexual way. Then when she’s called on it, so to speak, she starts clutching her pearls and fanning her face. If you put something out there that can in any way be construed as sexual, expect a lot of men to jump through that door you just opened.

I would avoid trying to wow people with your personality in the initial email exchanges. There’s too much that can go wrong with that. Keep it as simple as possible. I would also avoid any references to how sassy or sarcastic you are. That’s another one of those buzz words I consider a red flag if I see it in a profile or in email exchanges. Sarcasm is extremely difficult to convey in writing. Which is why people who use it tend to tip their hand as to how lacking in self-awareness they are. I’m a god damn barrel of monkeys, but you won’t see blatant examples of that in my profile. I focus on aspects of my personality that I feel men find important – I’m kind, I’m nurturing, I’m healthy,  I’m intelligent, I’m strong,  I like sex. Boom. Done. I have my filters in place to ward off guys I know I won’t be compatible with offline. I still get the occasional message from a Beta type. Delete. Block. Not for me. For the most part I hear from and get responses/meet men my speed. The profile is the teaser. It’s not a bio or resume.

Neither men nor women should try to be flirty or sexy or funny or aloof at any time online.  Be cordial, be polite, be engaging,  be vague, don’t get into to much detail about personal history and movie it offline ASAP. Never invest too much time or effort in these messages. The goal is to get offline. Stay online too long and you’ll get too comfortable and develop unreasonable expectations.

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Beware The Man Who Was Burned By His Ex

Name: Peter
Age: 28
State:
Question: The last post in regards to single vs divorced is the impetus for this letter.  I am currently separated from my wife and required to live apart for 1 full year before filing for divorce in my state with 6 months down and 6 more to go.

I have listed myself as divorced on my online profiles versus separated as there is zero chance of reconciliation, although I remain legally married.  We have a separation agreement, so our assets are settled and all that is left is a court date in 6 months to tell the judge we’re done.

My problem is that being 20-something and divorced carries a stigma.  I was married 5 years and my wife ended up buying a plane ticket to see another man and asked me for an open marriage.  I told her to cancel the ticket and move out or she could fly out to see the guy with the expectation of me not being here when she got back, so she moved out and cancelled the ticket last minute, keeping her options open.  A month later, she asked for a divorce, rebooked her plane ticket, and ended up moving in with the guy several states away just a few weeks later.  I found her journal on the computer when I was sorting through backup files and figuring out what files I needed to get back to her and found out before we got married she cheated on ex-boyfriends, tried to break up engaged couples, and basically fell in love with every man she ever met and manipulated them for her personal gain.  It turned out everything was an elaborate front and the woman I married never existed.

The bottom line is I was a victim in my marriage/divorce.  Before I found out she wasn’t the person she claimed to be, I told my ex-wife I’d quit my job, quit grad school, go to counseling, and do whatever else it took to save our marriage, but it was all for nothing if she wasn’t willing to put forth the effort since I couldn’t save our marriage on my own.  She told me not to do any of the above and gave up on me, which in hindsight was a good thing after finding her journal.

I live in the Bible Belt/South and the type of women I want to attract are those with strong values as my ex-wife turned out to not have any values at all.  This typically means a woman who is religious or politically conservative (of which my ex-wife was neither), which I have no problem with, but I carry the divorced stigma and get judged negatively despite the fact I was willing to give up everything to make my marriage work.  My parents are divorced and a “family history of divorce” seems to also be a red flag with  women also.

Beyond the divorce stigma, I’m a catch: I’m good looking, work out regularly, earn six figures, own a house, finish grad school in May, and I’m obviously not afraid of monogamy or commitment.  I realize that everyone my age has baggage and the key difference is how people have managed their baggage.  The only thing scarier than a man with a past is a man with no past. I don’t want to tick the box as never married and be deceptive and I don’t think it is appropriate to go into divorce details on a dating profile, but it sure would be nice if the women who weren’t emailing me back because I ticked the divorce box knew the reasons behind it without sounding like a vindictive crazy man.  If I would have had a church wedding, I’d have grounds for an annulment and would have never been married in the eyes of a church and could claim never married with an asterisk. What’s a guy to do to improve his odds without being a big fat liar liar pants on fire?

 

Here’s my question:

Do you want to date or do you want to bitch? Because it sounds like you just want to bitch. I’m not sure you should be dating at all at this juncture because you’re clearly not any where near past what your ex-wife did. This wasn’t really a letter seeking advice. You just wanted to vent. Which, I’ll tell you now, is unattractive. It’s unattractive in women and it’s unattractive in men. I understand that what she did was selfish, thoughtless and hurtful. I do and I’m sorry. But this woman didn’t become a shrew overnight. Nor did she hide it, as so many people like to say happens when they wake up one day and realize they dated an asshole. These people aren’t the cunning and calculated sociopaths we like to tell people they are. We refer to them as such because that’s a much easier pill to swallow than admit we were just blind or needy or lonely or desperate. And because it removes all responsibility from us for why we chose them.  She always was who she was. You just chose to ignore it.

Sweetheart, you’re wife picked you for a reason. Yep. She carried on affairs and manipulated you behind your back. Do you know why? Because she knew you’d either never catch on or you’d ignore it and let her do what she wanted because you feared losing her.

I was married 5 years and my wife ended up buying a plane ticket to see another man and asked me for an open marriage. 

Do you understand that by doing this she was telling you she couldn’t have cared less how you felt? No matter what you said, she was going to do what she wanted to do. I guess what I’m wondering is how you fell for this girl in the first place.  You need to figure out why you married this woman or else you’re doomed to repeat this mistake.

As for the rest of your letter, TL/DR. I mean, I read it. You’re so stuck in victim mode that it was struggle to get through it. I’m guessing that this is just who you are: a professional victim. You’re whining about stigmas and your selfish ex-wife and society. People who adopt a victim mentality tend to get victimized. That’s how it works.

What’s a guy to do to improve his odds without being a big fat liar liar pants on fire?

Well, the first thing they do is to swear never to say “liar liar pants on fire” again.  This isn’t about online dating and being divorced with an asterisk. What can you do? You can stop feeling sorry for yourself, take responsibility for choosing poorly, find out why you were attracted to your ex-wife and fix the problem. There you go. Boom goes the dynamite.

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Single, Separated, Divorced: How Honest Should You Be?

This Frisky article might spark some interesting discussion. Once again, I left a comment and it’s being moderated. I’m starting to think it’s personal. :) From the article:

Finding out that “single” signifier on his online dating profile actually should have read “divorced” has happened to me a grand total of FIVE times. I shit you not! Yes, all the guys listed themselves as “single” online, but mentioned their divorces at some point on the first date during the whole “this is my whole resume and life recap” bit. One guy referred to an ex as his “ex-girlfriend” first before letting it slip that they had been married. 

Personally, I don’t care how they present it initially. As long as they are available and not breaking laws or vows/commitments, I don’t care. I totally get why some people (because women do this too) are hesitant to reveal that they are divorced. This Frisky article, to me, has an underlying tone of judgment. Divorced = baggage/bad. Men and Women both know that people will make assumptions about them if they reveal that they are divorced.

“Oh God. Crazy Ex-Wife/Husband alert!”

“He doesn’t have any money because he got screwed in a divorce!”

“Oh, she lives off alimony. Gold digger!”

That’s why some people aren’t upfront about it. As I’ve said before, people who expect total honesty and full disclosure this soon reveal their own inexperience and issues.

I agree that Single, Separated but Single and Divorced are three totally different things. Divorced and Single, to me, are the same thing. I’d want to know sooner than later, but I wouldn’t automatically assume he was being shady if he told me later.  I’d wonder why he felt uncomfortable revealing this info. That would be my first question to him.

I do agree that someone should be upfront in their profile about just being separated. I’d prefer to know that before I decided to meet them. I still might meet them, though. These situations are rarely cut and dry. Someone could be legally separated but no immediate plans to get divorced for financial reasons. Is that an ideal situation? No. But if the guy comes clean and explains it in a way that doesn’t set off any buzzers, I’d be willing to give it a go.

And an honorable mention goes to O’Ex-Boyfriend who dated me exclusively for two whole months before he let it drop that he wasn’t actually legally divorced yet, only separated. Oh, did you just happen to forget to mention it?!?

If a man you’re dating “exclusively” reveals that he actually lied or intentionally mislead you about his marriage/separation status, guess what that means? It means he was never committed to you and that “exclusivity’ was just a weak promise to sleep with only you “for now” or because you pressured him into committing. It’s not the lie itself that bothers us. It’s the implications/motivations behind the lies and revelations that freak us out.

I once went out with a guy from OK Cupid. On his profile he states that he is single. He didn’t fill out the offspring option and left it blank. He also didn’t reveal in what field he worked.  He encouraged women to read his questions. He answered the question about whether or not he wanted to have kids by checking off No. He qualified that by saying that more kids were not in the cards for him.

But here’s the funny part. He was divorced (which he offered in an email conversation) and has 2 kids and works in a field that didn’t appear relevant or connected to things he admitted in his profile. Yet, despite being secretive and almost intentionally misleading about these points, he discloses in his profile that he wants to meet women who don’t mind that he’s already dating other women. Interesting thing to choose to reveal, no? He’ll be honest about that, yet not forthcoming about things as simple as what he does for a living.  I showed my friend his profile before I met him. He laughed out loud at the line about already dating other women.

“That’s like if I sat here talking to you and, out of nowhere, just poked you in the eye. It’s rude and unnecessary.”

“Maybe he just doesn’t want to date women looking for anything serious or exclusive? That’s why I responded to him.”

This particular friend is my Yoda, Robin Williams in Dead Poet’s Society and Hannibal Lechter all rolled into one. I half-expected him to look over his glasses at me and say, “Noooo…that’s incidental.”

“No. It’s just rude. It’s meant to be shocking.. Ask yourself why someone would do that.”

I went into that particular date far more alert after that conversation.

Back to the article. The piece also suggested that people should reveal their STD status in their profile.

Ami and I disagree on this one. She doesn’t think that going on a date with someone means there’s a presumption that sex will take place and that people should disclose once it’s clear sex is going to occur. Meanwhile, I say that you should at the very least obliquely indicate your STD status in some way prior to meeting a person for two reasons. One, so other people wirh similar STDs who may want to date someone who knows what they’re dealing with can find you, and two, so someone for whom an STD is a dealbreaker knows whether to to invest the time.

This just in: most first dates go absolutely nowhere. Why should someone make themselves that vulnerable that soon? It’s like the author of this piece doesn’t even take into account how being public about something like that could compromise other aspects of his life.I also find it really…inconsistent…that someone like this particular author who is constantly talking about sex-positivity would write something that makes it clear that she considers an STD a deal breaker.

It’s not up to a virtual stranger to help you manage your expectations and personal biases. Dating involves investing time and money and accepting that there may be very little return on each investment. If you consider investing time in ONE DATE to be a challenge, then it’s really no secret why you struggle to find someone to date regularly.

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How Do You Date When You Don’t Have a Job?

Name: Greg
Age: 29
State: NY
Question: I have what is sometimes referred to as an ‘invisible illness’, a disability that is not obvious at a glance, and I receive government benefits due to my inability to work. People will generally have no idea I have a health issue unless I tell them, so my question is, how do I deal with this in terms of dating?

Often times the question of work will come up, and I’m never sure how to reply. Should I be up front when the issue comes up? Should I wait to get to know the person for a bit, and if so how long? If I were to make an online dating profile, should I disclose this right on the page? I don’t want to be dishonest, but I also don’t want to give the wrong impression or seem as if I’m just blurting out personal information willy-nilly.

Any advice on how to handle this?

MOXIE’S EDIT: He has Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome

If you’re unemployed for whatever reason, you should probably mention that in your profile. That is one of those topics that you really can’t fudge. If you don’t mention it you’ll look deceptive in some way. Then, when you do reveal it, your date will assign some nefarious and shady reasoning for why you didn’t tell her. She’ll make far worse assumptions about you other than you don’t have  a job.

I’m toying with the suggestion that maybe you should say that you’re financially self-sufficient but not check off anything as a specific career type. Only when you engage in an email exchange should you expand on this. Your situation has to be revealed before too much time and energy is invested.

It’s not that a woman cares what exactly a man does to make a living. Some women do. The ones who will only date a man in a certain field should be avoided anyway. So at least you’ll weed them out. What most decent women care about is that you support yourself and could possibly support them should things progress. Yes, that’s how far women think into the future when reviewing a profile. She’s calculating in her head how you and she will be able to buy a home together and afford to have her leave her job to stay home and raise your children. It’s crazy, but it’s how some of us do.

The reality is that if you are not in a position to support a family, even just you and her, then that means you have to go for women who either don’t want children/marriage, are divorced and not looking to marry again or don’t mind being the breadwinner. Yes, that is going to limit your options. Better that than going on a ton of dates that go nowhere and getting frustrated. You’re probably going to have to widen your age range, too.   I’m not going to tell you to wish upon a star and hope someone will love you for who you are because that’s a crock. If you don’t bring to the table an impressive level of financial security, you’re going to be ignored by a hefty portion of the female population. It sucks, but it is what it is. You are not going to Norma Rae your way out of this by trying to change the system.

Revealing an illness, even an invisible one, is going to make you appear weak and flawed. I tend to think women are more turned off by that than men. Women expect men to be “strong” in various areas, including health and physical ability. You can maybe say that a health situation has sidelined your career and that you’re thankful that you’ve still been able to maintain a secure and stable life. You have to make this sound as positive as possible.

It’s important to paint the right picture of your life and lifestyle. Ok, so you don’t go to an office or work full time. What do you do, if anything? Do you volunteer? Do you work part-time? Do you have hobbies? What does a day in your life look like? That’s what you have to share in your profile. You do not want to make yourself appear like you’re a shut in or live in a plastic bubble. If you’re active enough to be able to date regularly, that needs to come across in your profile.

(Contact me and I’ll be happy to review whatever you write and give you a complimentary profile review session. )

 

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How To Maintain Your Dignity After Being Rejected or Embarrassing Yourself On a Date

Moxie,

In tonight’s post you said

“The rejection stung, of course, especially since I wasn’t allowed the courtesy to process that privately.”

What do you do when someone rejects you on a date? I’ve had this happen a couple of times and I never know the right way to handle this. Do I excuse myself from the date and leave or do I stick it out?

I’ve also been on the other side of this. How do you suggest people reject someone if there’s no chemistry or if they express interest in another date when you know you’re not interested?

On a similar but different note,  how do you get past an embarrassing situation? I went on a date a couple weeks ago and ended up having a reaction from a medication I’m taking. I hadn’t properly spaced my medication with my alcohol intake and ended up getting really tired and hard to understand. My date offered to call 911 but I said no. He got in a cab with me and saw me home. I never heard from him again. Should I reach out to him?

Thank you,

E. – NYC – 36 -  Female

 

As I said in that post, what made the rejection painful wasn’t the rejection itself. It was the fact that I had been blindsided with it after 2 hours of conversation that included all kinds of compliments combined with the utterly disingenuous nature of the rejection. Really? I was everything you were looking for but I was just too much your equal and on your level to date? Okay. That makes sense. How stupid do I look?

The thing to do in a situation like that, where someone is rejecting you, is to just smile and nod and say, “Okay.” If they try to get you to stick around to finish your drink or have another, explain that you appreciate the gesture but prefer to leave. In most cases, they’re praying that you say that. You don’t have to sit there and pretend to be unaffected. You were just rejected. That’s an uncomfortable situation. You’re allowed to want to remove yourself. Often times those who make such an offer don’t want to deal with people seeing them left at a table sitting by themselves. If they try to coax you back to the conversation, don’t give in. They just want to feel better about what they did and don’t want to be left there looking stupid. Excuse yourself and leave and be done with it.

If you’re the one doing the rejecting, remember these tips:

1. If you know immediately that there’s no spark or attraction, clip that date as soon as you can within reason. Say 45 minutes. You don’t have to say that you’re not feeling a click. You can say you made other plans. The other person should be able to take the hint. If they don’t and suggest another date, tell them to email you later and you guys can talk about it. If you want to rip that band aid off right then, you can. Just be kind and tell them you enjoyed meeting them but you didn’t think you were a match. What you want to show is that you’re being considerate of their time and feelings.  And ladies, if you know you’re not interested, offer to pay your share of the tab. Just do it.Don’t be an asshole.

2. If you’re not attracted to them, keep that fact to yourself. You can say anything else: no chemistry, not much in common, etc. But do not tell them you’re not attracted to them. It’s just bad form and a little cruel. Good for you that you’re so direct and honest. If it’s not paired with tact and compassion you’re just a thoughtless and arrogant idiot. Personally, I think this reason is a catch all for deeper reasons why they aren’t interested. I think more often than not it’s used to cap the conversation and prevent further discussion. Attraction isn’t something people have to defend. It’s either there or it’s not. Like I said a few weeks ago, this kind of honesty is used as a weapon or a shield. Someone who would tell you this is a walking liability, so breathe a sigh of relief that things didn’t go further.

3. Respond to their follow up request in a timely fashion. The longer you wait to respond, the worse it will be for them and for you. The goal in these situations is to be humane. Tell them that, after the date, you did some thinking and you realized that you and they probably weren’t compatible. Never, ever admit that you knew you were going to rejection at the time that you said to follow up with them about discussing another date. If they don’t realize that you were not just trying to prevent any Awkward for yourself but for them, that’s on them.

4.If you know you did something that might have hurt their feelings, cop to it. If they send you a terse message or lash out at you, really ask yourself if you did anything to contribute to that. If you did, own it and be an adult. And please, spare them the passive aggressive, ‘You know, you really didn’t handle that well HOWEVER…” No however. Just admit where you messed up and be done with it. Don’t be some passive aggressive douche.

If you’re on the receiving end of such a rejection, keep these points in mind:

1. Allow someone to be polite.  If they say they made other plans, let them go. If they say they weren’t feeling it, let them go.

2. Don’t send multiple follow up messages. They got your first one.  If they don’t respond, they’re either trying to be kind hoping you’ll get the hint/will drop it or are just not a nice person.

3. If you ask for a further explanation, be prepared to hear something you don’t want to hear. This is self-explanatory. Trust me. You don’t want to know the real reason. If they’re especially defensive or lacking in social graces, they will tell you bluntly what the deal is just so you won’t push them further or try to debate them.

4. Don’t expect them to actually be friends with you. When someone in this situation offers or agrees to friendship, don’t get your hopes up. Again, they’re being polite. They really don’t want to be your friend. They just don’t want you to dislike them. If you follow up with invites and emails,9 times out of 10 they’ll make up an excuse why you can’t hang out or will ignore you.

5. Ladies, don’t ever, ever do this. If a guy turns you down for a date or a hook up, walk away. Sending them naked pics or a video of you getting off in a bathroom stall makes you look a) unstable and b) desperate.  No, when he replied and told you how sexy that was or how he’s rather hold on to the friendship/maintain a business contact, he wasn’t being honest. He was being polite. If he wanted to have sex with you, he would.  There’s no such thing as a woman being too cool/smart/awesome to sleep with in a man’s book. Women love to reassure each other that the men in these scenarios totally respects them or cares for them or whatnot. That is said so you will turn around and do something equally as jaw dropping and they’ll feel less ashamed. Don’t fall for it.

Now for the second question. If you feel you did something wrong, offensive or inappropriate then the right thing to do is apologize.  He probably didn’t know what to say after that experience. It wouldn’t hurt for you to break the ice and follow up and explain what happened. It might be too late or be something he can’t get past. I think it all depends how the rest of the date went and how you handle the apology. Remember that what you reveal could be held against you. If you were on anti-depressants, keep that to yourself. Say that you took a Benedryl for an allergy and had thought enough time had passed between when you took it and when you started drinking. Keep the explanation short and vague. Tell him you’d like to give it another try if he’s willing. If he’s not, just move on. If this is something that has happened before then you need to check yourself. That is NOT something that should happen more than once.  There’s just no excuse for it.

 

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How To Tell If They’re a Dating Liability

Name: Denny Laine
Age: 44
State: New York City
Question: I recently started talking with an OKcupid woman who I’ve been e-mailing with for a  week. Things were going great and we finally made an appointment to meet. Before hanging up though she said “Just to let you know, I just got out of a 10 year relationship.” I didn’t know what to say but “OK.”   I didn’t know what to make of that.  What did that have anything to do with me? With us? Shouldn’t we start out fresh when meeting possible mates? Should I admire her for having a relationship last that long? Or should I question her for ending a relationship that lasted a long time? Do I give myself 10 years with her to see if we would make a different kind of couple?  When I meet someone, I like to think we’re starting out fresh. I would answer any question they may have from “how long was your longest relationship?” to “why do you think it failed?” I would answer absolutely anything and everything and be totally honest. I understand it’s not about me, that she’s just trying to get a picture of what WE would be like in the future.  But I wouldn’t saddle anyone with something like that when first meeting them. Was that supposed to be a warning to me, a total stranger looking to see her in good faith, starting out fresh? Any thoughts?
Age: 44
State: New York City

Wow. Okay. First, slow down. You haven’t even met this woman an already you’re thinking in terms of “we.” You are over-thinking this, which is almost certain to lead to you psyching yourself out.

She told you about her break-up for two reasons:

1. Because she’s probably a bit of a mess and didn’t know not to say that.

2. To warn you that she’s a bit of a mess and that you shouldn’t get your hopes up.

Her lack of self-awareness will inevitably cause problems down the road.

Personally, someone like this would present a degree of difficulty that does not interest me. I’d bail.

I would answer any question they may have from “how long was your longest relationship?” to “why do you think it failed?” I would answer absolutely anything and everything and be totally honest.

You’ve written several letters to me complaining that you can’t seem to find a girlfriend and that women think you’re “too nice.” This is why. You have to understand that when women ask you these kinds of questions there’s a reason and it’s not just curiosity. They want to find things out about you to eventually use against you in some way. Women ask men these questions in an attempt to exert power over them. They’re trying to establish just how far they can push him. If you answer these questions in any kind of detail, you risk looking weak. That is what “too nice” actually means.

I understand it’s not about me, that she’s just trying to get a picture of what WE would be like in the future.  But I wouldn’t saddle anyone with something like that when first meeting them.

That’s where you’re wrong. You do not factor into why she revealed this bit of information. You’re right. Nobody should ever saddle a prospective date with something that personal. It’s inappropriate. She lacks the social skills needed to know that. That’s what makes her a liability. A ten year relationship? Did they ever marry? Were they engaged? The potential bad judgment surrounding that scenario abounds. My guess is that she’s not looking for a relationship. She’s just looking to get back on the horse and have dates so she can feel more attractive. Same goes for men who offer such revelations. Except they’re also looking to get laid, since that’s what truly convinces a man that a woman finds him attractive.

This is why people should skip all the chit chat and decrease the amount of communicating they do before actually meeting someone in person. Inevitably someone says something stupid or inappropriate. You have to remember that everything you say is being put under a microscope. That’s why you should avoid discussing, among other things,  dating/relationship history. That topic is a minefield and gives people far too much ammunition. The whole subject should be avoided until the two people have established a level of trust and intimacy. Let them get a first hand sense of who you are in a relationship before you tell them about who you were in other relationships.

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First Date Protocol: What Do You Do When You’re Not Attracted To Them?

About 4 months ago I met a guy from OKCupid.

I knew the moment he showed up at the bar that I wasn’t attracted to him. I just knew it. This was a rare occurrence for me. In the last 2 years, I have not had one date that didn’t turn into a second/third/fourth/etc date, a request for a second date, a short-term relationship, or..whatever. In the two or three instances where none of that occurred it was because I was the one doing the rejecting. So there I sat with my mojito, looking at his watch, wondering when was the appropriate time to tell him I didn’t feel any magic.

About 20 minutes in he took the menu and started looking it over trying to decide what to order. I couldn’t let him do that. Not only was I not going to let him spend money unnecessarily, I also didn’t want to sit there not eating while he ate or somehow mentally trying to rush him through his meal. So I just came out with it. Ripped that band aid right off. We made it to the 45 minute mark and we said our good byes.

That was the first time in a long time I had to do that. The one other time was with a guy about 2 years earlier. This was a date clear cut “casual” date. The date was designed to determine physical chemistry. I knew going into that date that I wasn’t 100% on board with hooking up with him. When we met I knew it was a no go. The problem? I sensed he was kind of…volatile. Again, I did not let the date progress beyond pleasantries and a cocktail. As expected I was met with a tongue lashing that lasted into the next day. Even when I emailed him to apologize if he felt I had wasted his time, I was met with a barrage of insults.

It’s a tricky situation, right? You show up and, upon meeting someone and giving them that warm hug, you just…know. You know that they’re disappointed or not feeling it. When I was heavier, I got that tweak on almost every date. I would sit there and literally feel the guy trying to accumulate enough minutes before he could say good bye. There was one date that so stuck out in my mind that, when the same guy from the date rated me highly on OKC  a few months ago, I replied to him and told him what an unpleasant experience it was to meet him the first time around. I should have been flattered that he didn’t recognize me, etc. I know. I couldn’t help it.

I’ve never sat there and tried to make myself be attracted to someone. It’s either there or it’s not. I never felt a need to give it time to see if the attraction would materialize. As someone here has said before, who wants to be with someone that has to be convinced to want to see them again?

In an ideal situation neither of you are feeling it. Then you can get through one drink and skeedaddle. Then there’s Scenario B. That’s when you know you’re date is feeling it and you aren’t. Those are the sticky ones. There are, of course, two ways to handle it. You either smile through it and say nothing misleading. Then when you get the email suggesting another date you simply say that you didn’t think you and they were a match. Or you just tell them after the first round that things won’t be progressing, etc. Neither are especially pleasant. I suppose telling someone face to face is a little harsh and uncomfortable. I’d rather do that than allow them to think things are headed a certain way and then blindside them.

How do you handle this sort of thing? Do you know right away? Do you try to wait and see if the attraction will build? Do you leave?

How have you handled it when you’ve been the one who was dismissed?

Would you ever tell someone flat out that you weren’t physically attracted to them? Or do you lie?

 

 

 

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Why Total Honesty & Dating Don’t Mix

Last fall I had a date with a guy that I met on OKC. T.’s profile made it clear that he was looking for a casual relationship, as was I. Our conversations made it clear that we had much in common. He took great interest in my blog, something that always sends up a red flag for me. He said many times how eager he was to meet me because he felt like we’d have so much to talk about.

So we meet up. I’m not in my chair more than five minutes before he’s telling me how he never has expectations when it comes to his online dates, but that I was different. He then expanded on this by drawing a diagram with his finger on a napkin indicating how I “filled all the boxes” in terms of what he was looking for.

But then, out of no where, he dropped a bomb.

“The trouble with this is that there’s no hiding from you. There’s no mystique.”

I swallowed my cider and tried to ignore what he had said.Given that he had confessed to reading my blog extensively, my level of insight and perception should not have come as a surprise to him. Since he works in the sociology and psychology field, he and I share certain traits that tend to put a crimp in relationships. Namely that we both read people exceptionally well. My Ex, J, was a psychologist. I’d be lying if I said that our similar insight and ability to analyze situations didn’t cause some strife. But we got through it. I have said many times that I am no walk in the park when it comes to dating.Namely because I often times can predict what a guy will say or do long before he’s even formulated a plan of action in his head.

T. was right in the sense that there would be little mystique. But then…so what? I could see how this might be a problem if we were both looking for something more involved. But we weren’t. At least I wasn’t. According to his profile, neither was he.

Then he dropped another bomb on me:

“I’d love to write for your blog.” He didn’t say it seriously. More like half-jokingly. I just smiled and said nothing, my anger boiling up inside me. Son of a bitch. T. wasn’t interested in the woman behind the profile. He was interested in the woman behind the blog.

When T. said he couldn’t help that he “wasn’t feeling it” I stopped caring. He assured me that he thought I was attractive. It was the personality similarities between us that he wasn’t sure he could get past. We were both very direct, with equal levels of intuition and perception. Tricky. Acceptable. But there was no need to let me in on that little secret, thereby derailing a perfectly fun date.Which makes me wonder if that was what he wanted. Maybe he wanted to throw me off kilter so he could be in control of the dynamic. Or maybe he’s just profoundly stupid like his predecessor, Don Draper. He, too, would say the stupidest of things that would make things worse, not better. They both felt that being “honest” was the “right” thing. But if they were truly as intelligent as they perceived themselves to be, they’d know that total honesty was not going to advance their agenda, whatever that might be.

I got up to leave and put my money on the bar. T. asked me to stay, saying he felt we could still “salvage this.” I explained that I didn’t show up to the date looking for a new girlfriend, and that if all he offered was friendship then there was no point in me sticking around. He tried to talk me down, but my claws were out by that point. I lobbed back every serving of ‘honesty’ he offered and then some. Fuck that noise. Salvage what? Your ego? He eventually paid for our drinks and left. I sat there pondering what had just happened. I guess I felt the same way a guy feels when a woman goes home with him, lets him feel her up, gets undressed and then says she can’t take things further. It’s maddening and hurtful at the same time. T. was a psychological cock tease, no different then the women who let you slide your hand down their pants and then say, ‘Oh, we have to stop. I can’t do this.” His hand is DOWN YOUR PANTS. You’re already doing it!

I felt like I had been bait and switched on my date with T. Casual anything was not on the table. It never was. It made me feel really, really stupid for believing his praise. He was right in that I was not someone with whom he would always have the upper hand. I suppose that is unattractive in some way to some men. Someone who sells himself online the way he did in his profile on the Interwebs, so openly, really shouldn’t be concerned with maintaining a sense of mystery. Things didn’t add up for me, which lead me to believe that even though he said he was being honest, and was to some degree, he really wasn’t. Not with me and possibly not with himself. Bullet dodged.

Another guy I dated last winter pulled something similar. After a few dates he said that he felt like what he truly wanted was something more permanent. He asked me if I saw us headed in that direction. I will fully admit here that I lied to him and said yes. Am I open to something long term or more involved? Absolutely. But I knew he wasn’t it. We continued to date for awhile longer until it was clear I couldn’t give him what he wanted. We never were exclusive. I wouldn’t do that to someone that I knew I didn’t see myself with long term.  He had originally said he wanted one thing. Then when he had it, he decided that’s not what he really wanted. In this case, he wasn’t honest with himself about what he was seeking. He didn’t know himself well enough to understand what he could and couldn’t handle. Like I said last week, the real challenge of online dating is finding someone who knows what they want and who they are. Unfortunately, these people often lose out. Knowing what you want and what you can feasibly offer is scary to a lot of people.

When I hear people complain about the lack of honesty in dating and how badly they want the truth, I realize very quickly that they’ve never actually been told the truth. If they did, they’d know why total honesty is bullshit. Additionally, the people who tell you how honest and straightforward they are are also liabilities. They’re not honest as much as they are socially clueless, manipulative or rude. They wield their honesty like a bat with the intention of either hurting someone or maintaining control. It’s not as healthy and wonderful as you think.

Whether you’d like to believe it or not, the person you want and who is most safe to date is the the one who is willing to keep their mouth shut and tell a white lie.

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When Casual Sex Goes Bad

Let’s play Guess The Red Flags:

 

I’m not sure I have any questions about what I’m going to write, I just think I’d like to put all of it out there just so I can see how nutty it was, and see just how strange, if not bad, many of my decisions were. Perhaps to serve as a warning to others as well as for my own catharsis. I’ve never told the whole story at once.

I meet a PhD (biology) student via OKCupid, I’m 32 and she’s 26. Our first date we meet at a small, rather unique bar and have the typical conversation. I notice that she’ll rub her hands together intently—not necessarily furiously, but definitely with energy—over the candle, repeatedly. I blow it off, find it cute maybe. Walk her to her car, and that’s it. Figure what the hell, text her when I get back home a flirty message, get a response, not totally sure about the whole thing but interested. We set up plans to see the symphony, have a lovely time, I walk her to her door and she asks if I’ll kiss her—I do, and it’s hot, and she says she wants to see the orchestra again the next weekend. Her thesis defense winds up getting in the way and she cancels, and I bluntly ask if she actually wants to go out again, she says yes. Great. Later that night she sends me an email saying that she’s listening to the concert on the radio and wishes she could be there with me. We go out a couple days later, and almost immediately have sex.

Now it gets interesting.

About five minutes after the first time doing it (we wound up staying up til 4am doing it a few times), she says that she suffers from serious depression and has had suicide ideation in the past, talks about how she quit therapy due to frustration. I’ve been there, we connect about it. I see her both nights that weekend, lots of sex and some conversation. One night we’re getting started on her couch, and she claws into my back. The first time I sort of reacted, the second time I felt blood on my skin, which got more of a reaction. Then she does it again, on the same spot. Instinctively, I grab her wrists and hold them, and ask incredulously what she wants me to do. “This” she says with a smile. Wild sex ensues. And lots of cuddling after. She asks me in the middle of the week to go to the laundromat with her. Throughout all this, after she’s had a couple drinks she’d start telling me how nice I am to her and how I just make her feel so good about herself. At one point she asks how long I’d been on OKC (a month), and she says that she’s been using it for years, ever since it started.

That weekend we go out again, and she’s a bit colder. We go to her bedroom after getting home and she asks me why I’m so nice to her, and how do I know she deserves to be treated kindly. I brush it off. Wake up the next morning and ask her why she keeps bringing this up. She tells me that she’s not looking for a relationship. I say okay, I don’t really have the desire for something serious but how does she feel about continuing to sleep together. She thinks that’s fine. I leave. We see each other again a couple days later, and she’s very cold with me. No sex.

Later, she messages me online, complaining about a talk she has to prepare. I listen for a bit, and ask if she just wants me to listen, or if she’d like some feedback. She just wants me to listen, and continues to list her problems with the talk. It’s getting late, I say I have to go to bed, and that I’m sure she’ll figure out how to get through this because she’s made it this far anyway. That really pissed her off, and honestly, I can understand why, nobody wants to hear the old “you can do it!” schtick. I then write her a note apologizing, but seeking clarification about the nature of our relationship, because I’m not sure that “just sex” entails me listening to her problems or doing laundry together. She didn’t respond directly. I saw her again the night before I was leaving for a 2-week trip to New Zealand, and she was warmer with me.

A week later I’m in Auckland, working on some photos I’d taken earlier in my trip. It’s late. She im’s me, very friendly. Asking if I think about her. Said that she’s been thinking about me, and how last she saw me, she couldn’t stop staring ay my biceps. Flirty banter. Fun, light, cute. I go to bed.

A day after getting home, she asks me to come over. She hugs me, and asks me to squeeze her harder. I do. She wants it harder. I’m reluctant to comply. We have wild sex. Lying around, she tells me how she likes it when I squeeze her, and she’s pretty sure that I could squeeze her so hard it would kill her. She specifies that I should not do that. I agree. Neither one of us sleep that well with another person in the bed so we mutually agree not to stay over unless we’re too inebriated to drive home safely. We rarely get hammered, but occasionally do sleep in the same bed anyway—at one point, she tells me that she knows she’s very comfortable with me because she’s letting me sleep on the outside of the bed.

The following month or so features increasingly wild sex. We’d be undressed before getting inside her place. Most times afterward, we’d stay up cuddling and talking. Conversation ranged from typical pillow talk to some rather intense stuff—she talked in-depth about suicide ideation, being with a guy who yelled at her a lot and threw things at walls, getting pregnant at 21 just before starting grad school and having a painful abortion.

We go out from time to time. She texts frequently. She always texts the next day after we see each other about how much fun she had. She’ll also tell me she’s thinking about me, wishing she was in bed with me. Sometimes when I see her, once we start making out she asks me if I think about her, how often I think about her, what I think about when I think about her, and if I like thinking about her. Finally, curious myself, I ask how often she thinks about it: “all the fucking time” is her response.

Okay, cool. What part of this isn’t healthy, right? (<– sarcasm)

Periodically she’ll reiterate that we’re not in a relationship and it’s just sex, especially when it comes time for bed, and she wants me to leave. One time she notes that our sex sessions take a long time, and she says that if I want to “fuck her fast,” she’s fine with that; so I ask if she felt like that now, she did, so we partially undress and I finish quickly. She finds this extremely exciting, and immediately after I finish—while still inside her—she says, “now get the fuck out of here.” I gladly get off her, and start dressing. Then she softly says that she doesn’t want me to leave. I shrug my shoulders, kiss her, hug her, and say I’ve gotta get to sleep and head out the door.

Things go well for the next few weeks, and I take her out for her birthday. I got her some flowers, which almost had her in tears. We have a lovely dinner, and after having sex she coos at me to tell her something about me that she doesn’t know. I’m dumbfounded and don’t say anything. The rest of the week is fine, towards the end we had some very rough sex that wasn’t particularly great for either of us. The next day she starts telling me about how she has a deep-seated psychological need to be dominated as severely as possible. We hardly see each other for three weeks, she’ll make plans and cancel. I write her a brief note and say that I’m a little bothered by all this, that she’s been very curt with me, and that while I’d like to keep seeing her I’m thinking it may not be a good idea. She immediately apologizes and says she wants to keep seeing me. I say that this isn’t really as casual as we thought, given the emotional content of so many interactions, and she says that’s okay with her. We resume having sex, frequently. She asks for some amount of domination but I keep it in check.

She has a 3-week vacation coming up, and needed someone to come by her place, bring the mail in, etc. She says she doesn’t trust anyone else in her life around St. Louis, and asks me to do it. I agree. Things continue going okay, until she made an error in one of her experiments. She’s furious. She sends me a note saying that she would like to see me later that night, and she wants me to fuck her so it feels like she’s being punished. Before I go to see her, I get some flowers. Getting over to her place, things feel a little dicey, and we argue about an incident at a concert we’d attended earlier—basically, a couple of guys pushed a young woman in front of us, and I got pretty aggressive (though not physical) with the guys, and she disapproved of how I handled it. We settled it, started having sex, and just before it got to that time where I start “dominating,” she got a mildly fearful look and asked me to be gentle with her. Of course I was. I give her the flowers after, and get another near-tears response. It’s very sweet, and more cuddling.

She leaves for her trip a couple days later. She left me a small gift in her place, asked me to think about her, we talked a couple times after she landed in Europe and she was very sweet. That was virtually the last I heard from her during the entire trip. When she came back, she expressed zero interest in seeing me and we had a fairly ugly break-up sometime later. I was very sad about this, incredibly distressed but I somehow managed to stay focused on other things, get promoted at work and win a bronze medal in the national championships of the sport in which I compete. Emotionally I’m torn up. We tried “being friends” but it was awkward hanging out and not having sex. Much time passed and we stopped talking entirely.

A few months later, someone suggested to me that maybe this woman had Asperger’s and it made me question a few things, and it didn’t seem totally illogical though I’m wondering if maybe there was something more severe. I contacted her, she said she’d been thinking about me, we went out again and had a great time. We kissed and no more. A few days later we went for coffee, and she apologized for how she treated me after her vacation, and all the things she said during our breakup, and then apologized for how she handled our relationship. I said that much of it was indeed fucked up, but that I played a role too and that I felt badly about things I had said. She said that she wanted to start seeing me regularly again, but that she’d started seeing another guy who was into polyamory. He had a girlfriend, who herself was married. I said I thought that was odd, but that I didn’t want a committed relationship so I was up for seeing her whenever. I had a flight out of town shortly after this conversation was taking place, so no sex…we saw each other one more time thereafter, got into a fight about god knows what, continued the argument over the phone until our batteries died.

And that was it. I don’t remember much about the conversation, aside from her saying that she couldn’t be involved with me because she couldn’t have a boyfriend, and that she thought monogamy was an unnatural condition and a tool used to control women.

Three weeks later, I learned from a friend of hers that she’d slept with another guy on her trip, while I was watching her place. I went plaid. I was so angry I was shaking. I sent her a short, rather cruel note and told her to get fucked. She then started texting the person who told me demanding to know why this information was shared, which this person found unsettling. I called her, left a voicemail, and told her to leave this person out of it. So naturally, she called this person at 3am, which pissed her off. I sent her a note asking what part she didn’t understand about leaving the other one out of it and a few other (unnecessary) “choice” words. Never called her any names. I think I referred to her as a mockery of a woman. Typical angry BS.

It still bothers me from time to time. The relationship, what happened after, things I said.

But here’s what’s really strange. Since then, my life has improved dramatically, across the board, in every way. My friendships are rock solid, closer and warmer. I stopped having stupid arguments with my long-suffering parents. Until I settled down with my current girlfriend, without even trying that hard (I.e., wasn’t even on OKC) I probably hooked up with 12 women in three months. I got in even better shape, my creative work improved both at the office and personally. I’ve felt stable, healthy, composed, in control. But the experience I had with this woman still haunts me from time to time—there are likely no answers to any of it, no firm explanations. And certainly she’s not entirely to blame, I after all ignored red flag after red flag and at the very least enabled strange behavior.

The first flag was in her OKC questions. An insatiable sexual appetite, coupled with an interest in being the “slave” in a master/slave relationship. The second was right there in front of me, during our first date, as she kept methodically, rhythmically, intently folding and rubbing her hands together, over a candle, over and over again.

I could have walked away but I just couldn’t resist. Watch out for those rabbit holes. Sometimes it’s better to read the book than it is to be the story.

I can say one thing without any hesitation: before this relationship, I was happy to be one of those guys who “just kept finding the crazy girls,” and aw shucks why me. Little did I realize that I was probably behaving poorly myself in many instances, that I was ignoring flagrant warnings, and more or less finding a way to fulfill self-fulling prophecies when they didn’t fulfill quickly enough so that I could keep seeing the “crazy” ones and then wonder why oh why nothing ever worked out. Great method of dodging responsibility. High time I grew up. – BG

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