Just Because We Hook Up Doesn’t Mean I’ll Write About You

I just left this comment over on a post at The Frisky.

For whatever reason, it appears this comment has been moderated. I felt strongly enough about the comment that I wanted to post it here just in case it doesn’t get approved over there.

ATWYSingle • 3 minutes ago

People who go to bed with writers (ahem) will expect to wake up with shit written about them.

This is a cop out that way too many bloggers and writers use to justify behaving badly on the internet.

The only people who *expect* to be written about are the people who go out with us *solely* to be written about. Those usually aren’t the nicest/most stable of people aka narcissists.

I, for one, have to make extra effort not to be stereotyped as what is now considered the “typical” dating writer. It was bad enough trying to get over the Carrie Bradshaw, shallow, neurotic, shopping addict comparisons. Now we have to deal with being labeled drama/attention seeking, lacking objectivity, self-obsessed, trainwrecks. I’m tired of it.

What decent men expect is that we will keep conversations and interactions private. They expect that courtesy. They don’t waive their right to privacy just to take us out for a drink. I won’t even get into how gross it is that you expense bad dates so you can roast those dates online. You just said it yourself…even you are a potential target of websites like the ones discussed in this post. You make it quite clear that you are uncomfortable at that thought. So I don’t understand how you can then turn around and be so blase about doing the very same thing to the men who date us.

 

I just want to make something very clear here. Any man who expects to be written about because he dates a dating writer is bad news. Any guy who doesn’t express concern about how he is described or position in something you write wants to be trashed. Bad attention is still attention. I don’t care how many times they tell you that they don’t even read your blog or your articles…they’re lying. If they really don’t read what you write, then they don’t care about you. End of story. Run far, far away from any guy who acts unconcerned at the thought about being discussed on the internet.

The other night I was having a conversation with someone and he revealed that he initially, before we met,  saw me as a “player.” Which, as we all know, is laughable. Orly? A 40something year old women in Manhattan? A player? Allow me to recover from my momentary bout with The Vapors. Since I don’t talk about my personal life here or really anywhere, and I don’t discuss anything that I do with anybody else with the men I date, I was confused as to how he could make such an assumption. So I asked him to clarify his statement.

“Well, you know, you write about dating. That’s what I mean.”

This is one of those situations were men and women need to pay close attention to the words being used in certain conversations. Being called a “player” is not a compliment. Ever. Just like it’s not a positive thing to be categorized as “intimidating” or “aggressive.” If someone describes you as aggressive, take that as a warning. They are telling you that your approach is somehow unsettling. If someone calls you a “player” what they’re telling you is that they deem you unsafe in some way.

I asked him if there was something specific that I had written that had rubbed him the wrong way or bothered him. He said no. I didn’t push the issue because there really was no need to and it likely would have ended up in an argument. I wasn’t going to pick a fight over something like this. But it was clear to me that he was lumping me in with whatever other “dating columnists” he follows, reads or knows about.

Swell.

I guess what bothers me is that, no matter how hard someone tries to present a “dateable” persona online, there’s still the possibility that we will be judged simply for what we do. Hell, I’ll never fully get past the whole Blow Job Class that we used to host a couple of years ago. Hindsight is 20/20.

There’s no real delineation between writing a blog that deconstructs bad dates and a website that contains editorial content. Probably because the more editorial focused website contain a lot of “Ermergard, let me tell you about the dumb guy I went out with last night” type fare.

I realize that these are #singlegirlproblems and not that big of a deal to most of you, as most of you have chosen different careers. But this is the one I chose. It frustrates me that – no matter how much effort I make to be mindful of what I say and write – it could all be for nothing. Granted, my love life has greatly improved over the last couple of years after I decided to keep certain things offline. I guess I just worry that I’ll never fully be able to get past whatever preconceived ideas men have about women who do what I do.

I’m especially aggravated at writers like the one I linked to in this post, who seem to think they’re entitled to trash guys online because they are “writers.” “Oh, well those guys know what they’re getting into!” No, they don’t. Not the decent ones. The decent ones expect us to be decent in return. The assholes want us to flame, obsess and criticize them because it feeds their ego.

Face it, ladies. Some of you tolerate the worst in male behavior in the hopes that you will somehow score that Brass Ring of Single Men. Then you whine and cry when that little bubble gets burst. You endure bad dates with jerkwads not to be polite but because you hope that, somehow, you’ll be different or have a great story to tell at happy hour. When what you should do when a man acts rude or offensive is get up, put your money on the table and leave. Stop tolerating it. The desire for validation from strangers is strong. Believe me. I understand.  It’s like a Siren’s call. (Men are just as guilty of this, too, of course. I’m directing this commentary more to the women because most of what I read is written by women.)

Worse is how thin-skinned these writers are when someone turns their critical lasers back on to them. Then you’re being a bully. I had it out with a blogger a few weeks ago who played the bully card after I responded via Twitter to a post she wrote about getting a dick pic. I suggested she focus less on charm and looks because those are shallow attributes and that might help her avoid encountering dudes who want to chat about their sexual prowess. Let’s be honest. That is something women indulge as long as the guy is good looking.  “I didn’t ask for your advice!” she cried. Yes. Yes you did. You write a god damn blog wherein you break down the faults of every freakin’ guy you meet. That is asking for feedback. Don’t like it? Don’t share it on the Web.

Seriously, do us all a favor and write a diary. You’re not helping the cause. Trust me. You’re making it harder for us to do what we do and be taken seriously.

 

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The Best Dating Advice Women Will Ever Get Is…

I originally wrote this for YourTango a couple months ago. I’m going to add to it in order to answer some of the comments and feedback I’ve received since writing it. The feedback I received from men on this piece was universally positive. Not so much when it came to the ladies. Big surprise.

Ladies, I’m going to give you some of the best dating advice you’ll ever hear. Free.

Stop asking your girlfriends for dating advice. Wait. I’ll amend that.

Be very careful which of your female friends you turn to in times of romantic distress. The problem with most of said advice and reinforcements is that it’s rarely objective.  For example:

“You look GREAT!” – Thanks to social media, we have an endless supply of people who are happy to toss off this attaboy whenever we post a new Facebook photo. I can remember reading one such status update a few weeks ago. The woman had recently lost a fair amount of weight and, to her credit, it showed. The string of comments underneath her picture ranged from telling her how hot she was to how “skinny’ she was. As I perused the list of people commenting, I wasn’t surprised to see that there was nary a man in the bunch. The lesson for women here, when trying to determine what men find attractive,  is to pay close attention to both who is offering affirmation,  and who isn’t. You’ll rarely hear a woman say, “Sweetie, time for you to cut back on the booze. Your skin looks awful.” A man *will* say it…. in the form of a rejection, leaving the woman perplexed. EDITED TO ADD: No, dear. I am not saying that all her friends are lying to her and that she is  ugly and should latch on to whatever tubby drunk she can land. I’m saying that if you’re trying to meet someone, that their definition of attractive counts, too. Therefore, we shouldn’t tune out what men do and don’t say.

“You can do better.” – This statement is dangerous because it feeds the idea that we “deserve” a certain caliber of partner. It’s also misleading because, in many cases, water has sought its own level. Meaning the man our friend is dating is exactly what she prefers, consciously or unconsciously. Therefore, she possibly can’t do better. Due to all the self-flagellation that occurs when women get together, women sometimes develop an over-inflated or distorted perception of themselves. Also?  If it’s true that we can do better, we should always remember that he probably thinks he can, too. EDITED TO ADD: What our well intentioned (as opposed to the ones who are telling us what we want to hear) girlfriends mean by this statement is, “I never understood why you where with that jerkface in the first place.” They are questioning your judgment. The implication of this statement is, “What’s up with that?” If you think that you’re so incredible that few men can “handle” you or “deserve” you, and you keep meeting men who confirm that bias, you very well might be sabotaging yourself.

“Men are intimidated by you.” – This is probably the most egregiously inaccurate statement ever uttered by a female.  No, men are *not* intimidated by you. Women take this as a compliment, and it’s not. Women like to say this to each other because it implies that they (the women) are so scary intelligent, clever, successful, beautiful and witty that men immediately fear they aren’t good enough for them.  When a man says it, what he’s really saying is that men find that particular woman unlikeable in some way. He is not saying that men are threatened by the woman’s assertiveness or outspoken nature or success. That is a fallacy. Most men are not turned off by those things.  The ones that are, are men that these women wouldn’t want anyway, ergo who cares what they think? A woman should take a very long pause and do some personal inventory should a man ever tell her that men find her “intimidating.”EDITED TO ADD: Sorry, but if more than ONE guy says this to you, he’s telling you that something about you puts men off. If a man you’ve dated told you this, he’s nicely trying to say you were a pain in the ass.  If you’re dating men that are all a’threatened by how together you are, you have poor taste in men. See the previous point above and rectify that. Justifying this critique by bemoaning the lack of genuinely confident guys makes you sound defensive. I agree that there are some men threatened by a successful woman. But let’s stop perpetuating this myth that they make up the majority just so all us single gals can have something to bitch about over cocktails or on blogs.

“You should ask him out.” – Unless you genuinely believe that a man is too timid or shy or otherwise in the dark about your interest, you should wait for him to do the asking. The reason is simple: because men freely admit to arbitrarily raising and lowering their standards depending on the situation. Meaning that, if sex is offered, he’s likely to take it regardless of how attracted or interested he actually is. Since there isn’t the rampant slut shaming amongst men like there is women, men aren’t particularly concerned with being labeled “easy.”

“Never settle.” – The key to dating, if you ask me, is finding and embracing your audience. Thinking that your life will play out like the plot of She’s All That is counter-productive. Plus, let’s be honest. Rachel Leigh Cooke was already beautiful before they stuck glasses and overalls on her. If a woman sends out message after message through an online dating site and rarely to never hears back from those men, then she’s going for men with many options. She can either accept her place in his harem or, if she wants something committed and lasting, get really comfortable with the idea of settling. Or she could develop her own harem and enjoy herself and stop worrying what everybody thinks. Many women have bastardized the term “settling” to imply that it’s only done out of desperation. This just in…most people settle. They just convince themselves that they didn’t. EDITED TO ADD:  When I hear women talk about allll the opportunities they’ve had to settle down with someone but chose to remain single “because they’re worth it” I think one of two things: Liar, liar pants on fire or defense mechanism. Frankly, there really isn’t anything that gives me a bigger case of The Sads than listening to women rattle off all the opportunities they had that they chose to dismiss because they believe they bring something magical to the table that is so special and unique. Oh, you’re awesome and beautiful and smart? You’re right. You are different than all the other women out there! Eventually, no matter how a-MAH-zing you are, someone else comes along who is even more a-MAH-zing. Or just as a-mah-zing, but with less of an entitled attitude. Guess who the guys will choose?

This all brings me to my final point: choosing which female friends to look to for dating advice.

The friends who always manage to say, “Ugh. That’s like the time when Guy X…” should immediately be crossed off your list. Not only can’t they be objective, but they’ll make the situation about them, which is the opposite of supportive. You should also count out the women who have a negative impression of men or who stereotype them. Women who steadfastly insist that “all” men want is sex should be relegated to Dating Advice Siberia.  Lastly, avoid the women who emulate behavior that even men consider alarming and annoying when exhibited by men. That would include immaturity, combativeness, bragging and anger. These women have based their perceptions of men on a small segment of the male population. Whether these women will admit it or not, they actually find this kind of boorish behavior attractive. That should speak volumes about their perceptions and insight.

Lastly, don’t be afraid to ask that single female friend for advice. Women who like to use a woman’s single status as a reason why her opinion is invalid or wrong do so in an attempt to discredit her.  It’s shocking to me how many women see this as acceptable. To imply that a woman couldn’t possibly understand the intricacies of dating and relationship unless she has a man is probably one of the most sexist things women can say about other women.

Despite what many women will have you believe, a woman doesn’t need a ring on her finger to practice common sense and critical thinking.

In addition to this article, I’m going to post tips about dating advice in general.

Choose the right people to give you advice. people you know care for you.

Read it. Read it carefully. Listen to it. Don’t project. If your friend cares for you, they’re not trying to hurt you.

The gold in any bit of dating advice we get from our friends is in the sub-text. It’s not always going to be spelled out for you. Though that’s what I try to do. Your friends mean well, but sometimes they can’t be 100% objective because either they’re your friends and care about you or they’re jaded by their own experiences.

This advice can be summarized thusly:

Want to know what men find attractive or what men are thinking? Then listen to them carefully when they answer your questions. (Or don’t answer your questions.) Remember..sub-text is key. Men, for the most part, want to solve the problem. Just because they – or I – don’t tell you what you want to hear doesn’t mean we’re wrong or cynical or outdated.

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Don’t Be The Dumb Girl

Hey it’s “the dumb girl” from the blog that was mentioned in this article/comments. I finally did talk to my ex and get at least some closure. I just updates my blog about it, so check it out! Whydoesthishavetobecomplicated.blogspot.com – Portia

 

Since you decided to come back and post an update in the comments of one of our posts and invited us to catch up on this drama, I’m going to take this opportunity and run with it.

Stop.

Just..stop.

I’m torn between wanting to rant at you and wanting to hug you and tell you you’re better than this and this this guy is a joke.

Hon, he’s mocking you. He’s literally chuckling at how fucked up you’re getting over him.

Reading that post and hearing you admit how you – multiple times – grabbed his arm to talk to him while he was out with his equally oblivious girlfriend made me cringe.

He very well might be “afraid” of you, but only because he doesn’t want you to blow up his spot and reveal your side of the story. He’s going to do everything he can to make sure you never have access to that girlfriend. Here’s why…he’s painted you as a loose cannon. He’s afraid that you’ll tell her what a liar he is. He’s likely manufactured a whole fake drama complete with a multitude of lies.  You’re the crazy girl who is obsessed with him. And to some degree he’s right. I’m sure you’re not unstable or dangerous. But you’re pissed. The guy was a disingenuous phony who said all the right things and you believed him. And now you’re stuck feeling bad about yourself for believing his lies while he’s off enjoying his life. Your obsession, so to speak, isn’t so much with him. It’s with wanting him to acknowledge that he hurt you.

Here’s the problem. He doesn’t really know nor does he care why you’re so hurt. He’s never going to really know why he hurt you. In his mind, you’re just jealous and bitter and whatever. That’s what he’s telling his girlfriend.And she will believe him because she wants to.

He came back to that party because he and his girlfriend got into a fight (probably) and he wanted some attention and possibly some sex. And he knew exactly where to go to get it. You. You, the girl who followed him around at a party (yes, you did) desperately trying to get him to notice you. It’s quite possible that he wanted to smooth things over because he feared you might reach out to his girlfriend. I’m telling you…everything he does, he does for his own self-serving reasons.

This guy you’re stewing over? He’s a child. He likes the attention. He’ll go home and tell his girlfriend that he went back to that party to smooth things over with you because he thinks you’re nuts. I can assure you that he has her sufficiently bamboozled.  Every “John” does. They cheat on girlfriends and create dramas and say all kinds of rom com inspired things. Hon, he wants you to hate him. That way he can feel better about himself and go home and brag to his girlfriend about how fucked up he made you. He’s not going to tell her the truth. He will tell her a sanitizied version of events. He’ll throw himself under the bus ever so slightly to make it sound convincing. He’ll probably even forbid her to reach out to you saying he thinks you’re volatile in some way. That’s only because he has something to hide.

He’ll justify his cheating by saying how unhappy he was and how he regretted it and felt horribly. But he will not tell her the truth. Even if he does, she’ll forgive him because she thinks she’s different. And maybe she is. Maybe she is the one woman who can make an otherwise lacking in character guy a “better man.” But consider this: when you’re starting off at a negative, the improvement curve is rather small. Meaning he’s never going to be a “better man.” He just won’t be a complete asshole.

We’ve all had our “Johns.” This guy will pop in and out of your life in various ways. He’ll extend apologies one week and then do something hurtful the next. He might even find a way to stay connected to you. That’s what “Johns” do. Do not mistake that as being a complimentary gesture. It’s not. If he does watch you or check in, it will be to see if you’re still hurting. Because “Johns” get off on that. That’s what mine did. And when I figured out that he had been creeping around here and my Tweets for way longer than I had realized, I felt even worse about my decision to ever get involved with him in the first place. I knew he was a cheater and a liar. I knew who he was. I got what I deserved.

I’m writing this because I don’t want you to feel that kind of shame or embarrassment. This guy doesn’t care a lick about you. He will lie and and toy with you because he only cares about himself. Any pain he might cause will only be magnified if you believe a word he says now.

I know you’re going to do what you want. I realize that. But just promise me that you’ll at least keep this in mind the next time he comes around. Because he will come back around. “Johns” always do.

 

 

 

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Dear Whiny Dating Bloggers….Shut The F*** Up

 

Apparently, this post got certain thin skinned and wildly dishonest and hypocritical dating bloggers in a huff. If I write about a  post I read on a blog it’s not because I’m trying to “attack ” the blogger. It’s because, to be quite honest, I don’t agree with much of what these people say.  I’ve left comments on your blogs. But because they weren’t words you wanted to hear, you wouldn’t approve them or deleted them.

Let me see if I’ve got this straight. If I say things privately, I’m wrong. If I say things on your blog that don’t align with your personal agenda, I’m wrong. And if I say things on my own blog, I’m wrong. So, really, I just can’t win. If you want to get on your soapbox about how we should all get along and support each other, why don’t you start with supporting those who refuse to ride your proverbial dicks by saying only what you want to hear. Furthermore, if you’re going to get all hand wringy and sanctimonious, howsabout you be honest about just why I feel no obligation to any of you? You won’t, though, because that would mean admitting to some fairly shady and juvenile behavior on your part. Yes, dear, that means you, too. It’s convenient of you to act all wide eyed and ask aloud why “certain people” aren’t more supportive of dating bloggers. You want to tell a story, tell the whole story, you phony. Don’t conveniently leave parts out just because you desperately need to cling to some moral high ground. I don’t care if it was two years ago or two days ago. You drew the line. From that point on, I owed you nothing. Why you seem so shocked that I might disagree with you after that point is puzzling to me.

Do you need me to explain to you how it all works? Allow me to break this down for you. People have opinions. Not all of those opinions are going to agree with yours. If you hate the idea of someone criticising you, then maybe don’t devote a large part of your blogging and tweeting time making fun of, berating and blaming every single guy who doesn’t do what you want them to do because you’re too god damn self-important and blind to your own issues.

It’s funny. Y’all are so comfortable trashing the people you date and putting down other women for their choices, but when anybody DARES to do the same to you, you curl up in the fetal position and run to twitter about your “haters.” No, that doesn’t mean you’re famous. Nor does it mean someone is “stalking your tweets” you self-important gasbag.

Someone disagreeing with you is not a hater. They’re someone with an view point other than yours. You people have bastardized that term as a way to bully people into never, ever, ever saying anything that doesn’t align with your personal narrative and to prevent anybody from speaking their mind. You want to out people and dump on them and share emails and texts and violate their privacy. All so you can have your personal insecurities validated. You’ve insulated yourself for so long that you can’t even distinguish between genuine feedback and constructive criticism and blatant cruelty. I don’t “hate” on anybody here. I certainly used to, was wrong a lot, and I regret most of it. I’m acutely aware of what I’m saying when I write posts based upon pieces dating bloggers write. And if I do say something pointed, I can assure you, there’s a reason why I feel free to do that. Trust me.

Boo hoo, you  cry babies. Somebody accessed things you wrote on the Internet. Somebody followed a string in a tweet and came to your blog. Somebody didn’t jump to defend you! Bad blogger, bad! Blogger Smash! You make for excellent analysis and blog content. You people pick apart stuff you don’t agree with all the time. You write your slanted opinions and views in response to articles you read on the internet all. the. time. I am not obligated to agree with you. Nor am I in the wrong for sharing my opinions.

If a guy doesn’t meet your ridiculous expectations, you manage to word vomit hundreds of characters dissecting his every wrong move, attack his masculinity and make it about how he’s the problem. Sorry, but you ladies play a big role in the outcome. Yet nobody is allowed to even suggest that without you people flipping out.

There wasn’t any commenting war going on here. See, over here, people don’t take things at face value. We question things so we can learn. I realize that’s foreign to some of you since none of you appear to have the ability to see yourselves objectively. I’m not mean spirited or petty. I write objective reviews of certain situations. I edit or delete comments that I feel go too far. The goal isn’t to shame. Nor is it based on a grudge. The point is to try and pull people back from the dark side so they don’t end up like that particular blogger. It’s to help. Just because it doesn’t help you doesn’t mean it’s not helpful to others.

That Twitter Boycott you all participated in (as well as the fact that you gave people access to a password protected blog without permission. Access you got under shady circumstances, btw) isn’t the cause of my dislike of what you say. I thought most of you were delusional egomaniacs well before that. But when you rolled that out, you opened yourself up. You gave me license to speak my mind about you. I had never been anything but cordial to most of you, and if I disagreed with you, I said it to your faces. Unlike you idiots, who did it behind my back.  But you’d have to have accountability to see that.  If you did, my guess is some of you wouldn’t have the problems you do.

So you can all join hands and sing kumbaya about your fantastic little community. You can write your blog posts and wax poetic about each other. Then you can head back to your Twitter and blogs and dump on people and expose your exes and call people ugly and impotent, all while telling yourselves you’re so above “internet hate.” The proof is in the social media pudding as to whether or not your way works for you. Get over yourselves. Doesn’t make what you do and say any different or less critical.

It’s all very simple. If you don’t want people saying things that might hurt your delicate sensibilities, don’t be an asshole. Or be an asshole, just not on the internet. If you hate the idea of people judging you, then keep your life off the web and write it in a loose leaf notebook and hide it under your bed.

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Have You Ever Been Someone’s Experiment?

This will be a two parter. I was reading this post today and I was reminded of a conversation I had had about 4 years ago. The guy was someone I had met at a networking event. We exchanged numbers and set up a date for a few nights later. We ended up going to his gym and he taught me some boxing basics. (Fun date, I have to say.) Throughout the date, he brought up my blog. A lot. Enough that it made me uncomfortable. As he walked me to a cab, he told me that “if I wanted to” I could call him a specific alias when I wrote about him. That’s right. When. Not if. When.

I was an experiment to him. And, I’m sure, to many other men at that point in time. Compared to the story I linked to, I got off easy. The “honesty” in that guy’s words made me furious at the both of them. Him for saying it. Her for sharing it. People like that guy don’t deserve the additional attention.

In my scenario, the guy thought he was somehow being “different” by giving me permission to blog about him. What he was actually doing was revealing his true intentions. In the story written by the other blogger, the guy was playing the “honesty” card in the hopes it would score him some points. To top it off, he did the “you would be my first, baby” thing. Sure.Sure she would.

This happens to a lot of different people for many different reasons. They have something about them that is seen as “exotic” or “unique.” Maybe it’s their race or a specific fetish or proclivity. Or it’s their body type or looks. Whatever it is, the attraction isn’t based on who the person is. It’s based on the opportunity or experience that person might provide.

It took me a very long time to realize that being someone’s experiment wasn’t a good thing. It’s not a compliment. Once you realize it, it’s actually quite hurtful and embarrassing. Why embarrassing? Because we foolishly believed that that person liked us despite certain traits. Not because of them. Dating someone because they’re Asian or African American or Caucasian isn’t really an acceptable reason. If you have a specific fetish, then seek out people who are okay with being identified by that particular fetish. Don’t bamboozle them with the news after the fact. And don’t pretend like you don’t actually have a fetish and that there was something special about them that made you want to dip your toe into that particular pool. In short, don’t use people like that.

One more thing. If you do decide to take someone of a particular race, faith, orientation, occupation or body type for a spin, don’t you dare ever admit that you couldn’t cross that line and take things to another level because  of that characteristic.

Now let’s get into the very delicate subject of whether or not you tell someone that you aren’t attracted to them should they ask why you don’t want to see them again. Personally, I don’t see a need for that unless the person clearly believes they look better than they do or you were mislead in some way. For example, the men and women are are so sure they look ten years younger than they are and say so in their profiles. Or the overweight people who describe themselves as curvy, average or athletic.

My friend K. sent me a profile of a woman from Match and asked me what I thought. She had about 12 photos. 10 of them were from the shoulders up. The other 2 were clearly taken a good 5 years ago. Her face in those photos compared to the head shots made it quite clear that she had put on a noticeable amount of weight. She chose “Average” as her body type. He decided to go out with her. When they met she was, as I predicted, quite heavier than the 2 full body shots she had posted. He was a gentleman and was polite and sat and had brunch with her and paid the bill. She contacted him the next day and said she’d love to go out again. He replied and told her that he thought she was very nice but that he didn’t feel they were a match. She wanted to know why.

“Tell her” I said. “Tell her so she doesn’t have to go through more of these experiences.”

He told her he felt her pictures were misleading. She asked how so. (Jesus, take a damn hint!) He said he felt she didn’t look like her photos. She said nobody had ever told her that. He said he wasn’t trying to be hurtful but felt he should be honest. She said he was rude. He stopped replying. She sent another text suggesting they give it another go. He said he wasn’t attracted to her. She stopped messaging him.He didn’t have to go further and tell her he found her overweight. She should have picked up on his subtle hints. Reading Social Cues is a something people have to make sure are in their Dating Toolboxes. Trust me. It will help you avoid many, many awkward conversations and situations like the ones discussed here.

Nobody likes being backed in to a corner like that. But sometimes honesty, and not diplomacy, is required. Honesty shouldn’t be used to shame someone into leaving you alone. It should be employed when you genuinely want to help someone.

Thoughts?

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Is It Wrong for a Man To Challenge a Woman?

 

Interesting article over at The Frisky about “negging.”

His teeny little profile picture was cute. He was the right age range and city. But when I opened the online dating message from this random dude, this is what he said:

Isn’t feminism a little obsolete? Men and women are equal nowadays. In fact, the balance is tipped in your favor.

Of all the things for a man to comment upon in my profile, he chose to kinda-insulted me by calling my belief system “obsolete”? I rolled my eyes. I hit delete. Another one bites the dust.

I’d been “negged.”

 

I have a different take on this. I actually think the guy was trying to make conversation by challenging her about something she mentions in her profile. The definition of “negging”, according to the Urban Dictionary, is:

Low-grade insults meant to undermine the self-confidence of a woman so she might be more vulnerable to your advances.

Therefore, to me, this was not a case of negging. This was a case of a woman being askedabout something she included in her profile. The guy may have intentionally been trying to insult her. Or he was trying to engage her in a spirited back and forth. But I don’t think he was “negging” her. I think this has now become a go to explanation for why  a man might not immediately jump to effusive ass kissery when trying to woo a woman.

We see this all the time. We read statements in someone profile that pretty much BEG for a response. They are either blatantly inflammatory statements or they involve hot button issues like religion, sexuality or politics. My personal feeling is that people include these bytes because they want to be noticed or acknowledged for those particular thoughts or opinions.  What they don’t want to do is have to defend their stance. Which, to me, comes off as inauthentic.

If I mentioned in my profile that I believed in heaven, and someone emailed me and asked me (without being rude) why or suggested they didn’t believe the same, I’d reply. If it’s important enough for the person to include certain beliefs or ideologies in their profile, they should be prepared to defend them. Unless, of course, the person identifying themselves in a way that they know is provocative is doing so just to get attention. If they’re going to write anybody off who tries to debate their publicly stated opinions, then maybe they should take such points out of their profile. You won’t get as much attention, you say? Oh, alright. Someone can challenge a point and still respect whomever they are engaging. It isn’t always an attempt to be combative or insulting or degrading.

When looking through profiles, I tend to avoid the vocal self-identifiers. If a man said he was a Men’s Rights Activist, or that he didn’t want to hear from anybody that wasn’t Democrat or Republican, or brings up Occupy Wall Street, or talks about their spanking fetish, I’m clicking the back browser. I have no  desire to date a rabble rouser. They’re attention seekers. They want you to argue with them. They want you to ask them about their problems, fetishes and passions. They also want you to give them a reason to disqualify you because they don’t really want a relationship. They just think they do. They’re spinning their wheels on those sites trying to see how much attention they can get or so they can have all their negative opinions about women confirmed.

Now, of course, “negging” is a real technique. Like the author, I believe it’s a horrible way to try and get a woman’s attention and I think it works on a specific type of woman. I just don’t agree that this was an example of “negging.” I think the author brought something up in her profile with the intention of getting attention from it. She just didn’t get the attention she wanted. What if he had replied and mentioned spanking or something sexual?  How much should we bet that he’d still be labeled a wanker?

Look, there are many words that are immediate boner killers for men. “Feminist” is one of them. It’s not that they don’t respect a woman who identifies as a feminist. Nor does it mean they don’t believe in the fundamental principles that are the cornerstones of feminism. Where most men become super-cautious is when a woman announces – like in a dating profile – that she identifies as a feminist. To many men, dating such a woman will involve a series of ongoing arguments and ‘intellectual discussions.” They envision a frequent battle of wills. That’s unfortunate and inaccurate, of course. But that’s the typical internal reaction that a man has. A woman is better off showing how she’s a feminist than just stating she’s a feminist. It’s like when people talk about being into polyamorous relationships. They’ll probably have more luck simply stating that they’ve engaged in relationships where they had two partners that shared them rather than saying, “I’m a poly!” Show. Don’t tell. Showing makes certain things sound less intimidating, confusing or scary.

Personally, I think a lot of women like to identify as feminist because it’s a good defense. Use sex for attention? Oh, you’re a feminist, so that’s okay. Perpetually single? Oh, you’re a feminist, so that’s okay.

Let’s not get carried away and start assuming that any man who doesn’t automatically agree with us or who challenges us is somehow being disrespectful. This is one of those areas where I really feel like certain self-identifying feminists are being inconsistent. If you want to be respected and admired for your mind, then what is wrong with a man who tries to engage you in a debate?

Isn’t that what we want?

 

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Do You Come Off Like a Dating Slut?

I’ve been reading this blog for the past hour or so and came across an interesting snippet.

I simply had tea with a man who asked the same cliché career-related questions as nearly all the men before him. But things did get a bit more interesting when I told him why I never studied writing in school:

“I knew I needed a subject to write about. I wanted to know something deeply. Mostly, I think a writer’s job is to lead an interesting life.”
“You are really mature!”
“For 26, you mean?”
“No, in general. You are more mature than me. You actually come across as intimidating in your Match profile, like you are really comfortable – a pro at dating. And you are much sweeter in person.”

He then asked for feedback on his own profile, and joked, “Do I have to pay you for this?”

As a result of our chat, Mr. Gets Me Thinking inspired a shift in my perspective that could be crucial to my success in the quest for love:

  1. Good riddance to going out with men who I am not attracted to in hopes that they will become attractive to me.  From now on, hot boys only! I deserve them.
  2. My target market is age 30. Old enough to think about marriage, yet young enough not to have grey hair.
  3. Revise Match.com profile so I do not come off as a dating expert. Maybe if I dumb myself down just a tad in this area, they will stop asking annoying questions about my work…

We talked the other day about making your partner think that they were the one to inspire or encourage a more sexual or “slutty” side. My advice was to never give it all away upfront and make them feel like they were the first.

But what about when it comes to dating? Is it possible to be considered a Dating Slut? As others have said, if someone makes any kind of indecent proposal to you on a date, it’s not a compliment. It’s an insult. Does the same apply if they talk to you as thought they perceive you as some kind of professional dater?

I did a little research of various dating sites last week – How About We & Nerve. When I did a search through their members, I saw a large cross section of people on both sites as well as OK Cupid.  My guess is that the majority of people on HAW and Nerve are not paid members and signed up out of curiosity than anything else. I came away from those sites seeing certain guys in a different way. Here they were, on all of these sites, checking in regularly or daily.

I imagine my impression was the same of someone who takes out a woman who writes about her dates.  It wasn’t so much a “what’s wrong with them?” feeling that I had. More like a “is anybody good enough?” and a “do they even want a relationship or just like to serial date?” feeling.

One great way to either stay single in perpetuity or meet men who just like to be written about on a blog and who use you is to position yourself as a serial single girl on the internet. The problem isn’t just the fact that the women document their dates. It’s the fact that they are letting any man that comes near them know how many dates they’ve had. Dates. Not sex. Dates.  What guy with any self-respect is going to throw his hat into that ring for any reason other than a) he thinks shes damaged goods or b) he’s looking for attention?

Same goes for men that I see on all of these sites. Why should a woman go out with a man who is spreading his online dating legs on every dating site possible? Are they attention whores? Too picky? Serial daters? Bloggers? Online Dating Lifers?

Am I weird that I couldn’t give a hoot about how many sexual partners a man has had but I am uncomfortable with the idea of how many dates he’s had?

One of the reasons why I suggest to people that they create a new dating profile every 6-9 months is because I want them to avoid being labeled a professional serial dater.You need to do a total overhaul of your profile. New photos, new profile text, the works. I’m convinced that if you stay on one site for too long using the same photos and ad text, you immediately become considered a slutty dater and are therefore ignored.

There are other things to avoid so that you’re not tagged a Dating Slut. Such as:

1. Taking dates to your “regular” place - Yes, I know you feel important when the staff addresses you by your first name. Your date, however, is wondering how many people you’ve taken to this establishment.

2. Documenting your dates anywhere - I’m sorry, but nobody other than the people who can’t get dates wishes to live vicariously through your live tweets. Shut up. Nobody cares. You look sad. I’ll say this right now…if you are public about your love life in any way,  the majority of people you meet will not take you seriously. Anybody who aggressively panders for attention on the internet will be deemed an experiment. At best you will be someone they rotate in on their roster. Or you will attract people who aren’t very healthy or with malicious intent.

3. Bragging/Reminders – If you have to constantly update your FB profile photo to be of you and your SO so people know you’re still with so and so, all you’re telling your followers is that you can’t believe someone has stuck around for that long. Same goes for the updates where you shoehorn in the word boyfriend or girlfriend. As in “My girlfriend got me to try this great new orange juice. Tropicana rules!” It’s not genuine happiness. It’s shock combined with insecurity compounded by a bottomless need for attention that compels people to do this. Pick a profile photo of you two, stick it up there and STFU about it.

4. Discussing your dates..with your date - Got another date lined up for that week? Great. Keep that to yourself. Any time someone make sit a point to tell you about their other dates, they’re doing so for a reason. Either they’re trying to come off aloof and busy or send you a message that you shouldn’t get too attached. Save your horror stories for nights out with your friends. And keep them off the internet.

5. Having a “been there/done that” attitude - If you’re that immune to the excitement each date can hold, or if you’re so jaded, stay home. Don’t rain on your date’s parade.

Anything you’d liek to add?

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Can You Forget How To Date?

Name: Anonymous
State: CT
Age: 43
Comment: I think I’ve forgotten how to date.  For about three weeks, I’ve been talking to two different men that I met online, and I like both of them so far.  I’ve gone on two dates with Guy #1 and there is good chemistry and we have plans to see each other again next week.  Because of our busy schedules and geographical distance, we can only see each other once a week or so, which is fine with me for now.  I haven’t met Guy #2 yet because he travels for work and has been out of the country, but we both agree we’d like to go on a first date when we both can make the time.

My question is about communication.  Due to the distance and scheduling issues, it’s a slow go, and again, that’s okay.  But it seems like it might make sense to get to know each other a bit better during this time, via email or phone.  However, I have forgotten the art of early-dating communication…What do I ask about, how much communication is considered stalking, is it okay to share more personal information, or do I keep it to light and flirty?

Yes, I’m overthinking this, but part of it is that I’m not used to the take-it-slow approach, and am trying to learn how to adjust.

Your thoughts?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, I’m running out of steam a bit. I’m doing profile reviews 2-3 nights week, a family issue that’s going to be taking me out of town in a couple weeks and possible more often, and in between I’m dating.

People frequently suggest that I write a book, and I have a ton of stuff written and proposal complete. But I feel like everybody writes a book, you know? It doesn’t really mean anything anymore. Not to me, at least. Maybe that’s an excuse. I know that I ‘ll sit and write and I’ll get on a roll and then wonder if that’s even something I should be discussing, who it could affect, what would the ramifications be, etc.

I’m tired. More than that, I’m just sort of drained. I’m excited for the podcast show because I feel like I’ll have more room to be myself. I also really enjoy my co-host, who is someone I’ve known for many years. I always knew I wanted to do this show with someone who could be the Robin to my Howard, and she’s it. I know you guys will love her.

I think I want to focus on that for now. The truth is, this blog has been wearing me to a nub over the past year or so. The topic still gets me off, but the medium just isn’t working for me as much anymore. My thought with the radio show is that people will have to actually invest time to listen and comment. It’s not as easy to come here, read a post and comment. More thought is involved. I still get questions every day. But they’re repetitive. I’m still taking questions, though. I just want to try and cut back on the ones we seem to continuously answer like about who pays, etc. I really wish I could post profiles that I read so that I can more effectively demonstrate the mistakes we make as well as the ads that really stand out and work. Obviously, I can’t do that.

I’m thinking I’m going to cut back to two or three posts per week and a podcast every two weeks. The shows are taking more work than I expected. Researching articles, interviewing possible guests, doing what I’ll call “production meetings” with D. (my co-host.) We both get so caught up in the topics that we end up going off on tangents.

So, that’s where I’m at right now. If you’ve got a question and you think it will both give me an opportunity to discuss something we don’t frequently discuss, please submit it here.

 

 

 

 

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Why Did They Lose Interest So Quickly?

Mox:

I have to respond to your last post b/c you stated that you “haven’t been groped” while on a date. I’m sure you were referring to me. Also, I wanted to illustrate the problems that online dating presents.

True, I tend to mouth off about that and kissing women.  However, I think you and some of the posters have the wrong ideas about what I do.  However, if I’m wrong then I’m honest enough to see that and modify my behavior.

I met this 36 yr old woman on match recently.  She is separated and only will be free six (6) months from now. The funny thing is that she had never dated b/c she got married at 17 years old to a guy ten (10) years older. She also lives more than an hour away from and she drove to see me on dates. We met and hit it off.  I could tell there was chemistry.  At the end up the date, we were in my car and I decided to go for it and kiss her. It ended up being a very passionate kiss where she was grabbing my jacket and pulling me towards her when we were kissing.  In fact, she was ready to go home with me until she said she had to go home-at which point I stopped.

Afterwards, she was texting me asking me stuff like who was I going out with that weekend and sending me a pic of her.

Okay, so fast forward.  She breaks a date with me on a Saturday and I tell her, “no prob.”  She then calls me that following Friday to go out and I say sure.  Well, we meet and I felt like the passion from our first meeting was gone.  She seemed like something was wrong. Then she tells me her soon to be ex-hubby found out that she was dating and threatened to kill her while her 17 year old daughter was also bitching about her dating.

In any event, we watch a band and she lets me put her arms around her.  We go back to the car and, again, I initiate kissing.  At this point, I felt that it was “all clear” to touch her based upon our previous encounter and the fact we were at it again.  Albeit, I did not go down below her waist.

Anyway, she ignored my subsequent texts and, in fact, she was suppose to call me this past Monday which she did not.

Now, although I liked her, I have moved on because she has only been separated six (6) months and that, alone, told me it was not going to last. Also, she looks like she is going to have a lot of family drama in her life which I would rather stay out of.

I don’t know why she faded on me–so quickly–after showing major interest in the beginning and giving evidence she was ready for physical action.  I’m curious as to why.  I do know she was dating other guys while she was dating me b/c she told me.  I can’t believe she would tell me this. Anyway, I thought about it but I don’t believe the groping had anything to do with it.

In any event, this is the type of online dating I am talking about.  However, I will say there were red flags and I chose to ignore them.

OffensiveDan

 

I’m sure you were referring to me.

Actually? I wasn’t. I’m going to preface my response to this post with a disclaimer/rant – Just because something could apply to you doesn’t mean it is directed at or inspired by you.   The reality is that this is a big city and I write about dating for a living. There are staple characters that we all encounter. There are certain stories that will trigger a memory and a reaction. That’s life. This is what I do. At any given time somebody could read something and think it’s about them. Why? Because these stories are so common, because the ups and downs we feel and the behaviors we exhibit are universal. And because I’m human and have had my own experiences and sometimes infuse my columns with them. I am only responsible for me and how I process things. I am not responsible for anyone’s insecurity, self-obsession or guilty conscience.  I don’t shove my opinions in anybody’s face and I color within the lines. That means that nobody gets to tell me how I should process certain things or what should or shouldn’t bother me. Agree with it, don’t agree with. It’s really not your concern or your place. Please do not make statements like, “I’m sure you were referring to me” unless you are actually sure. Honestly, not everything is about you. And even if it is, you always have the option of ignoring me should some of those opinions cut too close to the bone.

Now, as for Dan’s issue.

Dan, you seem to have the same experience over and over again. You have a great date, things get hot and heavy, the woman turns out to be a steaming plate of crazy and she blows you off. People Fade. This is very common in dating. Maybe they met someone else. Maybe they had enough time to decide if you were right for them. Maybe they’re flaky. There are all kinds of reasons. But if this CONSISTENTLY happens to someone, the only common denominator is them. People need to learn to figure out if they are experiencing a typical by-product of dating or if there is something about them that is causing them to get ditched. If every scenario follows the exact same patter, then the problem is with them. Not the other person.

You had all the signs up front that these women are unavailable or difficult in some way and yet you plow forward. Yeah, someone who got married at 17 to a guy 10 years older than her probably has some issues.   Anybody who gets married that young (say 17-25) to someone that much older hasn’t a clue what she’s getting in to. She’s escaping. Or she’s swept up in the romantic notion of playing house and is enamored with some guy who, once the curtain is pulled away, wasn’t who she thought he was.  When the marriage inevitably fails, she’s like Jodie Foster in Nell. A stranger in a strange world without a clue of how to date because she married herself off before she got any actual experience.

That’s why she’s acting this way. She doesn’t have any idea what she’s doing. She’s still tied to her maniacal Ex and she’s saddled with a pissy teenager because she got pregnant at 19. She’s just trying to catch up on everything she missed. But since she’s lacking any actual experience, she doesn’t know what she’s doing. She’s like a top spinning out of control.

I can’t believe she would tell me this.

I can. She has no experience so she doesn’t know it’s inappropriate. She’s employing tactics she’s read about in Cosmo. “Make him jealous, ladies!”

Dan, she faded because her ex husband threatened to kill her and because she’s not in a stable place to date. Pretty cut and dry there, I think. But let’s look big picture, shall we?

You are constantly reliving this scenario. Why? Yes, you ignored red flags. Why? Why can’t you just cut out the minute one of those big red flags starts waving? You seem to go out with anybody that shows interest, get ditched, and then complain about it. You never move past that same stumbling block. Why? You’re not learning anything. You’re not taking the lessons you were taught with the previous situation and making adjustments. You seem intent on “winning” here.  You appear to want to make one of these scenarios work so you can prove to yourself that it’s not about you. Dan…it IS about you. So acknowledge that, fix the problem and move on.

Crotch Rocket had a great comment the other day. I’m going to sign off with it:

Focusing on the other person’s wrongs is a way for us to justify our own wrongs. And then they do the same thing, of course. Voilà, vicious cycle.

 

 

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The Stranger

Name: Kitty

State: NY
Age: 45
Comment: Hi Moxie:  So I’m giving online dating a try and signed up for JDate.  My Modern Orthodox community here on Long Island is medium size, but I’m open to meeting less religious types…and those outside of my immediate area.  Among those that keep showing up as ideal matches are a few guys in my community…two of whom are actually interesting.  Not sure how to handle the “I see you on JDate” thing, I sent each of them a cute email which essentially said “Hi I see you here online, nice profile”.  Nothing more personal.  One man I know (he’s in the fashion biz and seems to date models), and the other is a very high profile business man.  (He’s widowed).

I should add that I have kids in middle school and both of these gents have kids who are in college and beyond…so unless they want a busy household…I won’t be interesting on that level either.

Did I do the wrong thing by saying a nice hello online?  Both responded politely, nothing more.  Not that I’m really expecting something, but I’m curious as to how YOU would handle things when you see someone in your extended circle on line.

 

Here’s what I think, and this is definitely going to be colored by my personal preference.

In today’s world, many of us have online and offline personas. We all feel somewhat vulnerable about who sees and who knows what.  I’ve had men reply to my dating profile and refer to the column or call me Moxie. I don’t like it. I always delete those emails or don’t respond. If I did respond, it would only encourage the guys to continue emailing me and I don’t want that. As I’ve said before, I don’t date men who show interest in the column in any way beyond general curiosity or who offer themselves up as column fodder. These men are showing interest in Moxie, not the real me. I am at a distinct disadvantage with those men, since they have access to me that I don’t have of them.  That makes me way too vulnerable, so I avoid them at all costs.  I’ve been involved with someone who did that, who used information he learned from monitoring me online without my knowledge, and used said information to his advantage while feigning ignorance.  I’m sure most of these men have no malicious intent. But some do, so they all get thrown in one group. Not a risk I’m willing to take.

While there is no real stigma to dating online anymore, that doesn’t mean people are totally comfortable with folks from their “real” lives knowing anything about their personal lives that they do not choose to share. It’s not about being embarrassed. It’s about feeling a little too vulnerable. We’re all so accessible now that I think many people prefer to believe – even if it isn’t true – that they can still be somewhat anonymous. (PS? You submitted this letter using your real name. In the future, be sure to use an alias. If I didn’t know you, I may have posted this letter using your real name thinking it was an alias. )

I often see people I know on various dating sites. I don’t contact them unless we’re close friends. If I know them well enough and want to say hello, I email them. But if they are just guys I’ve dated or acquaintances? I let them go about their business. I allow them to believe that nobody is watching. Dating is hard enough. Nobody wants to think that someone is monitoring their personal lives in some way. Sure, people might say that they’re choosing to put themselves out there, etc. Yes, I agree. But there’s a difference between putting themselves out there the way I or any other blogger does it and the way a “civilian” does it.

I think, should you encounter other men online that you know in real life, you shouldn’t acknowledge that in your intro email. If they recognize you, they recognize you.  By saying something to them about how you know them offline, it could make them a bit…paranoid. By not saying something, you’re demonstrating an understanding of privacy and boundaries, two things very important to most men.

I don’t think you did anything wrong by saying hello, per se. But I wouldn’t be surprised if their polite response and nothing more had a little to do with the fact that they recognized you from real life.

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