He Won’t Pay for Dates Until They’re Exclusive – Agree or Disagree?

I’ve been dating this guy for the past 3 weeks.  He seems sweet and shy.  When we are together we have a great time and are able to hold great conversations.  The chemistry seems to be there as he makes suggestions to hold my hand when we are walking around during our dates and the kissing just gives me the butterflies in my stomach.  However….two main issues have been a bit troublesome for me.  After our 1st date he suggested we take turns paying for our dates.  That was a big WOW for me.  I am a very giving person  and tend to help out on paying for dates but after 3 or 4 dates have passed.  Well, long story short I agreed to it.  Especially since he spoke with me about his past dates taking advantage of him financially and his last girlfriend was dependent on him financially.  He basically paid her personal bills.  This is new for me but it seems taking turns paying for our outings has eased him.  The bigger issue for me is that he is dating other women, including me.  I know that we are not exclusive but…  I have been use to the one on one dating routine I have had with other men.  I have been use to that if it doesn’t work out well then we can cut our loses and move on to dating others and end things.  I had this conversation with him and he states that he prefers to date me and openly date other women because we are not yet exclusive.  He states when we are then the situation will be one on one.   Am I conservative in my thinking or is it far fetched now a days to expect a guy to do the one on one dating and not date other women until we figure out what can happen between us? – Annabelle, NYC  – 38

This is new for me but it seems taking turns paying for our outings has eased him.  The bigger issue for me is that he is dating other women, including me.

So, he’s choosing not to spend money on you until you and he are exclusive? Hmmm. That sounds eerily familiar. Where have I heard that before? Oh. Right. From 75% of the women who have written in saying they won’t have sex with a guy until they are exclusive. Now you know how men feel. It’s all feels very quid pro quo, doesn’t it? That’s dating in this city and many others. The man is keeping his options open and refusing to spend too much money on any woman until he decides that he’s ready to be exclusive. What’s funny is that when a man does this, a woman dubs him “cheap.” But when a woman holds off on having sex with a man until she gets exclusivity or a promise of something more, she’s considered “prudent.”

Yes, I think you’re being conservative in your thinking. I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but I can assure you that some if not all of those men you thought were engaging in a “one on one” dating situation weren’t. They just didn’t make the mistake of telling you that. Or they were smart and, if you asked, lied. Just like a woman should skirt the truth if a man asks her the same question. Bottom line is that neither parties want to know.

No guy wants to know that he’s paying for meals and drinks for a woman who is going out with other men who are doing the exact same thing for her. It makes him feel like a fool. And who wants to date a fool? I was reading this blog the other day, the one with the “Nominate a Date” campaign, and questioned out loud how this woman ever thought she would find a guy perfectly okay with knowing she was being treated to expensive outings by various men. We all know that the people we date are probably dating others. Especially if we meet them online. But we don’t want to know it. It makes it harder for us to justify spending the money or having the sexy time.

There are some questions that just should not be asked this soon in the dating process. “Are you dating anyone else” would be one of them. Any person who asks that question or offers up that information so soon in the dating process has very poor dating skills. So take note and heed that warning.

I am a very giving person  and tend to help out on paying for dates but after 3 or 4 dates have passed.

Right. And guys prefer that they get to get a blow job before they pay for 3 or 4 dates. Crass? Yes. Honest? Yes. Point? It’s not all about you.

I’m not sure what it is you gain from a man paying for 3 or 4 dates other than the delusion that that means, for sure,  he’s totally into you or not going to have sex with you and never call. Thoughts like this are to women what a woobie (blanket) is to a child. They provide nothing but a false sense of security. Women need to understand that if a man is that desperate for sex, money is no object. A sucker will take you out 4 times and pay every time without any sort of reciprocation because, well, he has to.

A man with a backbone will take you out on 4 dates, pay every time, but have sex with other women while he waits for you to decide it’s safe to reach in to your wallet or have sex. Then he’ll either dump you strictly on principle or continue sleeping with you and those other women and never offer you more than that.

 

 

 

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Money Matters

Remember this post?

Well, it seems the same woman went out with another starving artist type. Only this time he didn’t stick her with the bill. He actually paid for everything, every time. This unemployed man made sure to pick up the check after every date. And guess what? She’s still complaining.

Since he was a gentleman, he picked up the tab. We went out a few more times and each date was the same — bottles of wine, elaborate food, plus dessert. One day he revealed he had no idea how he was going to pay rent. It was a little awkward and it made me question all the elaborate dates. And his sanity.

The author is right in that it is awkward to date people who are unemployed or struggling financially. Typically, most people don’t divulge such information to people they barely know. But when they do, they do it for a reason, and it’s usually to keep expectations about how elaborate a date may be to a minimum. It’s a disclaimer.

Since he was a gentleman, he picked up the tab.

Ah. That again. So, he’s a gentleman for paying, but because he paid he’s financially irresponsible. If he had asked her to pay her share or not paid, he’d have been accused of being cheap. She’s clearly quite pleased with herself that she got  a man to pay for her cheesecake and wine. She wants to be sure everybody knows that. Apparently she has a totally passive role in all of this and isn’t able to suggest they just go for dollar beers and darts. This is all him. Got it. Gotta love that inconsistency.

Should someone be dating when they’re unemployed? That’s a personal choice. Should somebody allow someone who is unemployed to pay for all their dates? That’s another personal choice. Someone going out of their way to pay for their date when they are unemployed might just be trying too hard. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re unstable financially. It seems like people are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

I was saying to a client yesterday that the subject of financial security and stability has no place in an online dating profile. You don’t mention that you’re unemployed in your dating profile. Nor do you mention how financially secure or stable you are.  You don’t talk money, period. That’s the typical rule of thumb. It’s gauche and tacky. Not to mention, if a woman is divorced and she mentions in her ad that she’s financial secure, a lot of the men reading her ad will grumble under their breath, “Yeah. Thanks to your ex-husband and alimony.” In many cases, that’s not even true. The woman made her own investments and had her own savings and secure job. But she’ll be branded in a negative way strictly because many men have been conditioned to believe that every woman sucks her ex-husband dry in a divorce. Some do, of course. But not all women do that.

The whole topic of money is inappropriate this early in the game. But if it is raised, it’s usually done so for a reason, and that’s to communicate just how much they can offer financially. This guy is obviously quite socially inept or else he’d have never mentioned his financial situation at all. Or maybe he was hoping that this woman would get the hint and fork over some cash for her wine and dessert.  Could be that he was trying to keep up appearances or trying to impress her. Poorly, obviously, but still. In any case, the guy was screwed from the get go.

What really let’s say…intrigues me…was this statement:

And if it’s a choice between your rent and a date, you should probably put dating on hold until your finances are more stable.

Now, since she’s so comfortable questioning his financial responsibility, stability and judgment, I’m going to ask a question. Um, what the hell does she do for a living again? Because I’ll be damned if I can figure it out from reading her blog and column. Maybe she has a full time job. I don’t know. She never seems to mention one, but she might have one. It’s unlikely that she makes a living off of writing columns like this. Yes, I know, Carrie Bradshaw did it! Except..she didn’t, because she wasn’t real. If she were, she wouldn’t have been living in an UES studio with a closet full of designer label shoes and dresses. I mean, she could have done all that, but she was probably being very financially irresponsible if that was the case. Or she was doing what so many people in this city do and was withdrawing healthy amounts of cash from The Bank of Mom and Dad. I know I have from time to time. Not consistently, but I’ve been fortunate enough to have a father who worked extremely hard and planned well for me and was completely and utterly selfless when it came to money. Too my detriment actually. But money from parents isn’t the same as money you earn. Are we lucky to have access to it? Absolutely. But having that does not make us more financially secure or stable. It certainly doesn’t elevate us to a higher level where we can justifiably judge someone else’s finances.

So here’s my Fail to Fab moment: It’s tacky to talk money in any context with someone you’ve just met, but it’s even more unattractive to sit around and dissect how someone manages their money, especially when you so willingly allow them to spend their money on you.

 

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What’s The One Thing You Could Improve/Change About Dating?

In preparation for our upcoming Date Smarter Salon on Dec 7th, I’m writing the outline and companion e-guide.  We’re going to be covering a lot of topics in the class. Such as:

~Online Dating

*How to spot and deal with the time wasters, what behaviors are common, how to make first contact and take thing soff line

~Maintaining Privacy/Security

*Did you know someone can do a Google Image search of your dating profile photos or email address/phone number and get yall kinds of private info?

*How much dating re-con work should you do? How much is considered a violation of privacy?

*How does Facebook and Twitter help/hinder dating and relationships?

~Dating & Sex – Is There Such a Thing As Having Sex Too Soon? -

*How long will a man wait for a woman to decide if she’s ready to take thing to a physical level?

*Do men really judge women for having sex after just 1-3 dates?

~Dating & Finances -

*How has dating changed in the new economy?

*Who pays?

*How have gender roles changed?

~Dating & Commitment

*Why do they act like  aboyfriend/girlfriend but won’t commit?

*Are people committing any more? Why or why not?

*Why do there seem to be more casual and/or Faux-lationships?

 

Here’s my question to you. If you could give the opposite sex (or same sex) advice on any dating related topic…what would it be?

And…

If you could change one thing about dating, what would it be?

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Could You Date Someone Unemployed?

Name:Deena
State: Illinois
Age: 31
Comment: I am a woman who loves cooking, traveling, art, home decorating, sports (watching and playing), wine, and cultural and educational events.  I am a good friend, daughter, sister and volunteer with many different organizations.  I’m often told that I’m sexy; I have a model’s frame and my best asset is my smile. But more importantly, I am a good person and practice the ‘treat others the way I want to be treat’ mantra. I’ve had great relationships that just ran it’s course and don’t have any baggage. In fact, I have a friendly relationship with almost all of my exes.  Here’s the problem: I’m unemployed.  I’ve recently obtained my masters and have been job hunting for almost a year.  In my pursuit for a career, I’m also looking for a partner for a long-term relationship.  I am ashamed of the fact that I’m unemployed and I feel as if I’ve lost my identity; what do you do is the first question people ask after they’ve asked for your name.  I know that I have a lot to offer but since my unemployment, I’ve turned down many dates for fear that I may seem like a ‘loser.’ In the past, I was pursued by really successful men and now, I hide from them.  I’ve began dating men I wouldn’t ordinarily date, men who are younger and not as financially secured.  I’m not looking for someone to ‘take care of me’ and I don’t want to come across as such, due to my unemployment.  How do men feel about dating unemployed women?

My stepmother dropped out of high school to take care of her parents. It was something she always regretted. My father, right after they got married, encouraged her to go get her GED at 50something. She did and then headed back in to the work force in her fifties.  Then, at 70,  she expresses an interest in computers. My father told her to find a class that could teach her computer basics. Would she ever use those skills? Probably not. But he still encouraged her to take classes because he (like many people) value the pursuit of knowledge. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what you did, Deena.

Here’s the thing about that question, “So…what do you do?” I’d say that, for the most part, when men ask that question they’re merely trying to make conversation. While they’re definitely on high alert for women who are looking for someone to support them, they don’t all necessarily care if a woman is marginally employed or unemployed as long as she’s managing it well. Especially in a situation like yours where you took time off from your career to pursue your education. That’s not something someone does just to find a benefactor.

You invested in your professional career. That’s something that most people – male and female – greatly respect. Someone who does that possesses important and admirable qualities that make them a good employee as well as partner. When someone tells me that they’re pursuing higher education (or any level of education) I think they’re not afraid of hard work, they’re focused and they’re disciplined.  Those are all good things, things that you should make you feel proud. You’re bettering yourself. Don’t think men look down on that.

In today’s times, I think it’s far more common to encounter people in your position. Anybody who would look down on someone for being unemployed these days or consider it a mark on the person’s record is astonishingly out of touch. Being unemployed or having bad credit or not being terribly financially stable is commonplace now. No, they’re not great things. But they are realities of our current economic situation. Someone expecting to meet another person who is gainfully employed with a stable job, with a 700-800 credit score, and little debt is ignoring what’s going on out there now. Yes, there are some people who have been able to maintain all of that. But there are a lot of really good, hard working, honest people who weren’t so lucky. There’s a big difference between some leech who is living off parents or the government and eeking out a living and someone trying very hard ( and maybe failing at times) to make ends meet on their own. This is something that should be examined on a case by case basis. Broad generalizations are not wise.

You’re intentionally going for men that you consider “less than” because that’s how you see yourself. I’ve said this before…shame is a heavy anchor. You didn’t so anything wrong! You chose to continue your education so you could go on to have a lasting and successful career! There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that! The longer you allow those thoughts of shame or insecurity percolate in your head, the worse it’s going to be. You have to shut them out. You have to. There’s nothing worse than living like that. There really isn’t. The messages just play over and over in your head until you start to believe them. Turn them off. Now. Start doing things that make you feel good about yourself. Go volunteer. Be a mentor to a teenager. Work out. Do something to get you out of your head.You did nothing wrong.

It’s great that you’re self-aware. But you don’t want to become so aware of your perceived flaws that you end up becoming a walking raw nerve. Not only does that affect you mentally, but it has some pretty adverse physical affects as well.

The true upshot here? You’re giving guys a chance that you probably wouldn’t have before. While you might be going for some men men who aren’t all that available just because they’re riddled with shame, too, you’re probably getting to know them beyond what they do for a living. Another positive! Anything that encourages empathy is plus.

Next time someone asks you what you do for a living, all you say is, “I just finished my Masters and now I’m on the job hunt.”  If you’re not having luck in finding a job, take any job that gets you out of the house and around people. I’d also suggest volunteering or even interning in the interim. (Internships aren’t just for college students anymore.) At least it gives you a sense of purpose and exposes you potential job connections. Fill some of your time doing something that relates to your chosen career.  Create an action plan that details how you will get back on track professionally, socially and financially. Start a support group for others who are fresh out of school and unemployed.

When you start to see that there are so many people who are in the same situation as you, you won’t feel so out of place.

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So…What Do You Do?

I was reading an article a while ago and the interviewer asked the subjects if they had ever been discriminated against because of their chosen professions.

One man, an actor, expressed frustration at how some women disregard him because of that choice.

To me, it’s important that the person I date respect what I do for a living. I’ve had guys ask questions that made it clear they thought what I did was frivolous. As long as I’m not relying on you to support me and it makes me happy and therefore a better and more stable partner, it shouldn’t really matter what I do.

I’ll date an actor. A working actor. I don’t care if its voice overs or off broadway or summer stock. He doesn’t have to be a “famous” actor. But he has to be working. Some guy at 35 years old who calls himself an actor when he earns most of his income either bartending, waiting tables or – worse – parental support while he goes on audition after audition but never books jobs  is just someone refusing to grow up.

The issue isn’t the money. It’s the all around emotional stability. A woman says she’s an actor and she’s usually labeled a drama queen or high maintenance. Well, it works both ways. Artists of any type are often considered “moody” or “dark.” And rightly so. That is the concern for me. It’s not how much they earn. It’s the unpredictability involved with dating someone who, in order to be successful, has to be extremely committed, passionate and emotionally raw. I wouldn’t NOT date someone just because he said he’s an actor or writer, etc.  I would date him, but pay close attention to his behavior and moods. If he shows signs of being erratic, disorganized, melodramatic, emotionally withholding or unavailable or reclusive, that’s when I’d disengage.

But what if a woman or man did decide  to not date someone pursuing a career as a creative type because there wasn’t enough financially stability associated with that chosen field? Is that really a bad thing?

In the past, I don’t think men were as concerned with what a woman did for a living as long as she supported herself. I don’t know of that’s the case any more.  Women appear to be picking up that slack. More and more I hear stories of women supporting their men while the guy earns a modest living, if any at all. As money becomes tighter and tighter, and the cost of living sky rockets, we’re just not as willing to risk the possible financial (and emotional) volatility.

Another issue that arises, one that has nothing to do with how much they earn, is how many hours they work. Say doctor, lawyer or even entrepreneur and you’re possibly considered high risk because those fields are known for their schedules and commitment levels. I always advise people to avoid the “What Do You Do?” question when they go speeddating. Save that for the follow up conversations. Stick to questions that help you determine if you have common interests or values. (i.e. What is your typical weekend like? How do you relax? If you could travel anywhere in the world where would it be? If you could have lunch with anyone, living or dead, who would it be and why?)

Then there’s the status seekers who think their ability to date someone in a certain field is a statement of their worth. It provides social proof. Some women trip over themselves to brag about dating a doctor or lawyer. There are men that think they’re “cool” for dating a dancer or stripper. Hate to break it to ya, kids, but this is Manhattan. Dating a lawyer or a dancer isn’t exactly hard to do. So if you’re going to brag about it, make sure your lawyer or dancer is either extremely rich or objectively hot. Anything else just makes you look like you’re trying too hard to impress people.

Some people will even intentionally date someone who is professionally unestablished. It gives them an air of superiority. That makes it easier to own or control the person they’re dating.

 

What about you? Does what someone does for a living raise any red flags? If so, what are they? Would you give them a chance or would you immediately cross them off your list as potential mates?


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The Sexual Learning Curve

Name: Sweet Vibrations? |  | Location: Rural  , NC |Question: I have finally met a really great guy! He is exactly what I am looking for in a man. He has numerous hobbies, motivated, sincere, open minded, and doesn’t seem to have any hang ups or issues he is currently working on. (Which is saying a lot for today) So the problem is we slept together for the first time and I walked away feeling less than satisfied. In fact I would be so bold as to say it just sucked. Not that sex is everything, but I have been with men in relationships early on that weren’t as pleasurable as I would have liked, and lets just say that I vowed to never get stuck in that kind of relationship again. Satisfaction is not over rated, but this man is really just amazing every other way! I realize I am getting older and other things should be more important like companionship, commonality, and true respect for each other. I guess my concern is… do all “good guys” really have to suck in bed? And should that be acceptable if the fire doesn’t light during love making? Am I judging too quickly because it wasn’t spectacular the first time? HELP! |Age: 41

 

I think you might be over-analyzing this right now. The first time for two people can be awkward. You have no real working knowledge of the landscape or plumbing. It’s like buying an old house. You walk through the home and everything seems ideal so you buy it. Then you find out that there are a few creaks and cracks and you do some home repair. This is a salvageable situation as long as you truly want to save it. Will he always be “bad?” I don’t know. Possibly. But you have to try to fix things first before you decide. You owe that to yourself and to him.

The only time first time sex with someone has been mutually off the charts amazing is with men that I knew pretty well and with whom I had built up a certain level of anticipation. There was a lot of talk about what we liked and didn’t like. I If I really liked them, then you can bet I was nervous and maybe even tried a little too hard. Maybe the lack of sparks for you was because you were both trying to hard to impress each other?

Another thing is that “great” sex is subjective and offered based on more than the intensity of the attraction and orgasm. There are times I’ve thought I had great sex and then looked back and realized that what made it great wasn’t the man’s abilities or how we were together. I had projected all my intentions and feelings on to him and the situation. There was a psychological component involved. That’s why the sex was “great.” Take that away and it wasn’t any better or worse than most other experiences.

Every couple has a sexual learning curve. Some pairs are lucky to have it be stellar the first time out of the gate. Others work up to that. Which can be fun, btw. ;) Take this time to learn about what each other likes and gets you off before deciding he sucks in bed.

No, not all “good guys” suck in bed. ;)   A man doesn’t have to be a distant and withholding person to be sexually potent. This is one of those myths women like to tell themselves along with how some guys are just “too nice” and therefore should be avoided.  It’s not that the men are “too nice.” It’s that those women who rely on such ideas aren’t cognizant of the fact that they enjoy being treated poorly or prefer unavailable men. Don’t look for excuses to dump this guy because you don’t trust that he’s for real. People who say they refuse to “teach” a guy how to please them, claiming they’re too old, etc are really just trying to punch themselves up. “I’m just TOO good in bed. I’m above that. You need to be on MY level.” Awesome. Just another excuse not to give a decent guy a chance. I actually think that sexual chemistry can develop. There has to be a foundation of attraction, of course. It’s not impossible to create an intense connection in those situations.

Now, what should you do in the event the sex doesn’t improve? That’s up to you. I don’t know how you prioritize sex. Would you be “wrong” for dumping him? I don’t know. By 40, many of us have accepted that we need to compromise in certain areas. Most people refuse to compromise where sex is concerned. Which I understand. But is that realistic and are we shooting ourselves in the foot by doing so?

 

 

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Does Earning Potential Matter Equally to Men &Women

I once had a man, after I turned down his request for a second date, tell me that he didn’t want to go out with me anyway because he preferred a woman with more earning potential. In all my years of dating in NYC, I had never heard that. I had always assumed, and maybe incorrectly, then men didn’t really care about how much a woman made as long as she wasn’t look to him as some sort of safety net or cash cow. I still tend to believe that, for most men, they don’t care what a woman makes as long as she doesn’t expect him to support her and is doing what she can to take care of herself. Maybe I’m wrong?

I’ve never cared much about  a man’s financial worth, so long as he could support himself. I don’t need him to support me. But I need him to be doing whatever he can to take care of himself. And, if he’s divorced or has kids, he must be doing right by them. That, to me, is far more important than being able to take trips, fancy Tribeca apartments and go to fancy dinners. I’m not sure total financial stability is possible when you’re divorced. Or, as many people have experienced in these past two years, unemployed. What’s key for me is that the man is doing the right thing. Trying.

It’s common for many women to say that financial stability and earning potential are important when choosing a partner. Or even choosing  a lover. Are men now taking the same approach?  Because…what if what happened these last two years happens again? What if he’s laid off, or unemployed? Or…what if he has no desire to be employed, or wishes to pursue a certain career that, as of yet, has not been fruitful,  and is looking for a woman to take care of him? I’ve said this before, there are more men out there than some would think. They’re living off women they don’t truly care about, paying little to no rent, strictly as a means of survival and nothing more.

Women put so much importance on a man’s financial stability, and that’s understandable. But is it reasonable to expect such stability nowadays, or past a certain age? And is is something on which men place equal importance? Between the economy and divorce and college loans for business school…isn’t it more common to encounter men and women who are struggling?

Ladies, if you found yourself dating someone who was marginally and then totally unemployed, would that change how you felt about him? What if he had to move in with you?

Guys, what about you? What if she had to move in with you because she was out of work and couldn’t find a job? Would that change your feelings in any way?

Finally, how long would you stick it out? Would you take in to consideration their earning potential? Or would it even matter? Many couples now co-habitate but do not merge their finances. So if you’re not joining financial forces in any way, does their earning potential and stability matter all that much?

For some reason, the topic of money always gets people around these parts very heated. So let’s try and tackle this by getting to what might possibly be the root of the issue.

Ladies - Would You Date a Man Who Was Underemployed/Unemployed?

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Men - Would You Date a Woman Who Was Underemployed/Unemployed?

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