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Would You Date Someone Who Lived With Their Parents?

April 17, 2013 by 133 Comments

Name: Guywallet22
Age: 30
City: Brooklyn
State: NY

Comment: To whom it may concern:

I am little lost on this dating scene.I wanted to be honest.

 First, I am balding, non-white/asian (it unfortunately matters I learned), Christian, and I can’t sing(hah).

But I do have a M.S., a job, live with my parents, and attending law school at night. In the culture I was brought up in, living with your parents until you were married or at least when you finish school was expected. But I am constantly seeing that people value someone that lives on their own but has family values. I am little lost on that concept. I am a only child, I love my parents, and I have friends, but apparently I am not good enough because I live with my parents?  Living with my parents has allowed me to keep an eye on my parents, get closer family relations, save plenty of money(apparently women like that, $100K+ in the bank). Furthermore, whenever I want to date someone outside my ethnicity I am already tagged as some vagrant or loser with loose morals that should not be given another thought. I have low expectations as it is already but still could someone throw me a bone—hah.

QUESTION: So my question is, how can I level the playing field where I can date other women of different nationalities and not have to face that stigma?

Easy. You move out and live on your own. I have to say that I call bullshit on the “but I save so much money!” excuse for having roommates or living with parents. Being an adult is about making sacrifices. When I hear the word roommate come from anybody over 27 or so I hear, “I’m not ready to grow up.” You can live on your own and still save money. You might not have the size apartment you might have if you didn’t have roommates, but you’ll have a roof over your head. It’s about living within your means. If you can save 100K while being in law school, you have the means.

In a rather heated exchange with my niece and nephew last week, I had to explain to them why I’m opting out of owning a condo that my father had purchased and let my sister live in that was included in my Dad’s probate estate. I created a bullet point list of why gifting my portion over to my sister would be a very, very bad move financially for all involved. I also had to explain the terms of the promissory note drafted by my father when he sold my sister, their Mom,  his home. It struck me, as we were going back and forth and they were accusing me of being greedy, that neither of them have ever lived on their own. My niece is in her mid-twenties and still lives at home. My nephew, 31, only recently moved in with his fiancee. Neither of them have ever had to go through the process of renting an apartment or buying a home. They’ve never dealt with landlords or had to pay property tax or applied for a mortgage. Therefore, everything I said went right over their heads.

By 22 or 23, most people here have moved into their first apartment. By 27 or 28, they’re living alone. Which means they are not only responsible for the financial aspect of that by creating and living on a budget and watching their credit score,  but for keeping their home clean, cooking, shopping, laundry, etc. That kind of autonomy and responsibility is crucial in our development. As I was saying to a friend the other night, there’s an incredible sense of pride in knowing that all your bills are paid, you’re debt free, and you’re contributing to a savings and planning for your future. As someone who always had a financial safety net of sorts in my father, I can not tell you how good it feels to stand on my own. (And, no, my trust has not played a major part in that.)

As long as you have that safety net of living at home, Guy, you’ll never truly be considered an adult.

It’s not just the “weird” stigma that you’re facing, Guy. What people are also wondering when they consider dating you is how you’ll cope with being “on the outside.” Lacking the experience in basic responsibilities like paying rent sets you behind developmentally. Yes, women like men who are financially stable. But you live at home. It’s not hard to accrue a 100K savings when you’re not paying rent or a mortgage. A woman would be a lot more impressed if you had a mortgage and 25K in savings.

I think you’re using your cultural traditions to justify why you don’t want to spend the money on an apartment. You know that living with your folks compromises your love life. Yet your desire to sock away cash appears to be overriding that. You want a girlfriend and a social life? Move out. You can move close to your parents and check in regularly. There are plenty of work-arounds here.Should you move out of Brooklyn there’s this magical system of cars that run beneath the ground that can transport you to wonderous places like Queens and Williamsburg.

Your making excuses because you don’t want to spend money. That is at the top of the list of things that women find unattractive.

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Filed Under: Date Outside Your Means, Dating, Dating & Finances, Dating & Race Tagged With: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

How Do You Say Thanks, But No Thanks?

December 11, 2011 by 83 Comments

Name: Back in the Game
State: NY
Age: 37
Comment: I’ve been divorced for almost a year and decided to try online dating. Out of the 20 or so messages I receive a week at least 50% are from men that are nowhere close to my specified preference. I  get several messages from men of races other than I typically date. Is it considered inappropriate to write in my profile that I prefer to date men of a specific race?

 

Name: Kevin
State: NY
Age: 41
Comment: I have a line in my OKCupid profile that states that I prefer to meet someone slender or petite who shares my interest in outdoor activities and who is fit like me. At least a few times a week I receive emails from women who either reprimand me for being shallow or who try to educate me in some way. I took the line out of my profile. The emails that lectured me where then replaced with messages from women who were chubby to obese but chose “average” or “curvy” as their body types.  Women have similar deal breakers in their profiles. Do they receive these kinds of nasty messages?  Is there a way to say what I am looking for so that I don’t get so many unwanted messages?

 

Okay. Let’s reply to each letter individually and then address the situation as a whole.

First, BITG, I wouldn’t recommend putting a disclaimer in your profile stating you prefer men of a certain race. While I don’t think it makes you racist, I do think going so far as to write that sort of disclaimer out will make you look…close minded. Not only that, but publishing such a requirement is akin to waving a red flag in front of a bull. People will email you just to piss you off or annoy you because they will find what you say offensive. I believe Match allows you to select the race of the men you prefer to date. That is enough. You don’t have to go further than that. If people choose to ignore that, that’s on them.

Simply delete the messages and block the senders. I happen to think that most men skim the profiles anyway. You’re lucky if they get all the way to the bottom. I think men read the body of the profiles not to determine if their are mutual interests, but to see if there are any red flags. If the picture and the age and body type work, they’ll reply. My personal belief is that the actual text doesn’t really matter. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t make the effort, of course. They should. But I think a lot of women try way too hard to make themselves sound engaging and fun and breezy and then end up being perceived in the exact opposite way. They say too much. 300 words is a good cap. Keep it short and sweet. Tell the man how you’re going to better his life. Paint yourself as a fun date. Don’t think ten steps ahead. Most men use online dating sites to get dates, not find mates.

As for you Kevin, I’m going to give you similar advice. Going out of your way to basically say “no fatties” makes you look mean spirited. What isn’t clear to me is whether or not you are simply only attracted to slender women OR you assume that women who aren’t slender/petite aren’t “healthy.” If it’s the former, then you can’t help what you are attracted to, and no it doesn’t make you “weight-ist.” But if your preference is based on the assumption that anybody over XXX pounds can’t be active, then I think you are being short-sighted. You may be being perceived (and possibly rightly so) as ignorant.(Note: If BITG refuses to date men of certain races based on stereotypes and biases and not simply on attraction then she, too, is being ignorant.) If a woman demonstrates in her profile and photos that she leads a healthy or active lifestyle, it’s really not up to you to determine if she’s healthy or not. Include a disclaimer and, like with BITG, you’re going to encourage the women with chips on their shoulders to respond. You’ve offended them, just like BITG has offended the men that aren’t of her preferred race.

Their resentment is neither your nor BITG’s  responsibility or problem. No doubt they have their own deal breakers and must haves. They’re just pissed that they are being excluded from your pool of candidates. They have no problem excluding others from theirs.

Do women receive messages like this? Oh yeah. I’m sure the women in our audience could share their stories.

People on those sites are always trying to shame or guilt others in to giving them a chance. It reeks of desperation and bitterness. But that’s what happens when you are on the receiving end of constant rejection. You get angry. That’s why you shouldn’t reply to those people that don’t fit your specified criteria.Just don’t engage. Of course, people could avoid the constant rejection if they would only adjust their expectations and broaden their horizons. Since we can only control ourselves, the best approach is to say nothing instead of hoping against hope the other person will handle the rejection with dignity.

Then there are the people who write you and admit that they know they aren’t what you are looking for but just had to tell you how great your profile is. Again, it’s a last ditch effort to get a response. Even those messages should be ignored. More often than not, it’s a trap. Respond and they will try to sway you and take that response as a sign of some kind of defeat.They are more interested in being right than being happy. They are going to get what they want no matter what. Avoid.

Bottom line…don’t reply unless you’re interested. On some sites that might get you flagged as being one of those really selective responders. So be it. I think that’s better than being flagged as someone who responds often. I typically avoided those people. Sure, I probably pre-judged a few guys who actually did reply to people with a polite no thank you every time they got an email from someone that wasn’t for them. But I’m also sure that I ended up avoiding a lot sport fuckers. The people who went out with anyone just to get laid. So be it. I’m fine with that.

The only people who complain about such a “cold” approach are the ones frequently being rejected. At some point, those people have to learn that the choice not to reply is now one of those social rules we have come to embrace in dating. After a certain point, people have to learn to accept these rules. Especially because it’s the refusal to abide by these rules that is keeping them single.

This is why most men pay for the dates and most women won’t have sex til date three. They are social rules. We follow them not because we want to, but because not following those rules so often leads to chaos and confusion.

 

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Filed Under: Awkward, Bad Dates, Closure, Dating, Dating & Race, Dating & Weight, Latests Posts, Online Dating Tagged With: , , , , , , , , ,

Are Men Attracted to “Nice” Girls?

November 30, 2011 by 59 Comments

Name: Utterlyclueless20s
State: New York
Age: 27
Comment: I am an AA woman in my late 20s who has always had difficulty finding a mate. It seems like there is something I am missing in attracting someone of the opposite sex. I am cute, not drop dead gorgeous, but definitely cute. I am a bit shy when first meeting others and I tend to feed off the energy they give back to me. If they are excited about meeting, then I am excited about meeting them. If someone is lackluster toward me, then I try to be nice and end up feeling awkward. I have a hard time meeting men. I work in a mostly female industry and my social life is mostly connected to my career. When I do meet men at parties, and chat them up, I feel like I am always out competed by some girl with better tricks or conversation. I am a genuinely nice girl who prefers to read, cook and have quiet dinners with friends. My interests are mostly related to my career or are domestic. Parties are the worst place for me because I feel like I fade into a wall. I have tried online dating for years and feel like I keep getting men that are not even remotely in my league. They only want sex or they wear gold chains and baggy clothes. I am the kind of black woman that likes going to hipster venues and gallery openings. This has shut me out to most black men but I have been openly dating other races. Yet those guys were not looking for a relationship (at least with me). The problem is getting the right attention. How does one do that in real life?

NOTE: Since I don’t have much first hand experience with dating black men or women, I’m going to leave that topic to the readers who do. Please feel free to share your thoughts and experiences.

These are all great things that many men value and find attractive. But they also want a woman who brings more to the table than just “nice.” Really think about that word for a second. Think about when and how you use it in this context.

“Oh, I met him. He seemed nice.”

Nice is the word we use when we really didn’t get any read or beat on someone because they displayed no dicernable personality.

Nice, to be blunt, is boring. Nobody wants to date boring. Especially the boring people. We all want someone who keeps us on our toes in some way. We want someone engaging. Not to be confused with “charisma.” Charisma is charm on speed. It’s fake and exaggerated and in no way genuine. When women say that they want a guy who has “charisma” what they’re telling you is that they are drawn to phony assholes who know exactly what to say and do to keep a woman’s attention. They want a guy with charisma because those men are usually in high demand. They think that getting a guy with charisma means that man finds her charismatic, too. Except they don’t. They actually find her really insecure and therefore easy to manipulate. That’s the attraction for men like that.

I am a genuinely nice girl who prefers to read, cook and have quiet dinners with friends

Men like nice. But men also like and want a woman that is naughty. They like women with a bit of an edge. As long as the woman displays a sense of vulnerability about her, she can pretty much get away with anything. So often you hear women wonder out loud, “What does he see in her?” What he sees is a healthy mix of femininity, vulnerability and sexiness. That can come in all kinds of packages. But the crucial component in that mix is vulnerability. Does she make me feel safe? Will I be able to be who I really am and show my fears and frustrations without her judging me or making it about her? If a man can glean that from a conversation with a woman and there’s a physical attraction, then he’s going to want to get to know that woman better. We talked before about men being intimidated by certain kinds of women. As long as the woman demonstrates her own ability to be vulnerable, she can be as assertive and bawdy and outspoken as she likes. The lack of vulnerability is what turns men off. So if you want to know what men want..that’s it.

Utterly, the tone of this message lacks vulnerability. You sound stiff  and a little entitled. I’m sure you are a bit of a wall flower, but the underlying rigidness is you’re bigger problem. Most men can and will overlook a woman’s shy nature. They even find that attractive to some degree. But if they pick up on the entitled tone or demeanor, they’re out.

I have tried online dating for years and feel like I keep getting men that are not even remotely in my league

We all feel that way. That’s because most of us way over-estimate what our league actually is. I can assure you that if you can’t keep a man engaged at a party or are always being shoved aside for other women, then you are not the catch you think you are. Leagues just aren’t about looks or status. Personality and charm play just a big of a role when determining your league. In fact, I’d say that personality is the one determining factor that can bump someone moderately attractive/marginally employed up to a higher league.

You need to work on your personality. You also need to take yourself down a notch or two. Anybody that says outwardly admits that someone “isn’t in their league” is merely trying to hide a bruised ego. You’re offended by the majority of replies you get online. Which I get and understand, as I’ve been in places like that. It is frustrating to get message after message from socially awkward men or guys who fall far outside your search criteria. It makes you wonder (as it should) if this is the best you can do.

The answer, Utterly, is…sorta. You need to take a look at the replies that you get online and get a general idea about what all these men have in common. That, in a nutshell, is your league. It might not look pretty or feel good, but it’s a pretty accurate barometer. You’re next step is to look at what you bring to the table and how you present yourself and figure out what you can tweak in order to change the quality of your responses, online and off. Maybe you need to rewrite your profile or post new photos. Maybe you need to work on your social skills. Maybe you could make some significant changes to your presentation. You’re not going to change the men and what they want. But you can, if you choose or feel you should, make changes about yourself.

The starting point for you is find out what men really think when they meet you and what sort of impression you make.

 

 

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Filed Under: Awkward, Book, Dating, Dating & Race, Dating is Fun, First Impressions, Latests Posts, Meeting Men, Understanding Men Tagged With: , , , , ,

Cultural Differences, Kids, Jobs… Or Just An Excuse Not To Get Serious?

October 20, 2011 by 38 Comments

Name: Yesenia
State: WA
Age:  30
Comment: My last 3 boyfriends have been Indian. They were super fun but most of all they  where all very sweet and caring. So what is the problem? The problem was that I was not Indian. I’m an engineer with a masters degree that was about the only thing the moms liked about me. I’m Latin and the last one told me that his mom would die if he took a Latino woman home, right before telling me we had a few months before he had to go back home to marry a women his parents picked for him. My question is why  is it that they bother dating and looking for a relationship they know they will never be able to have without being judged by their family? Do they just want to have fun? If you are an Indian man and you are reading this, Why? why do you make someone like me lose my time and yours?

 

 

Do they just want to have fun?

In a word? Yes. Take the cultural issue out of the equation and this is no different than what happens all the time – Person A knows what they prefer in a serious or long term partner, but date Person B any way, knowing it has no future. Why do they do it? Because they’re thinking of themselves, and not considering the feelings of Person B.

There was a similar discussion a few weeks ago in regards to a man using his family as an excuse to not date someone seriously. While I have no doubt that some cultures do have very strict rules regarding marriage, it also wouldn’t surprise me in the least if people used their families or traditions as an escape clause of sorts. That way they’re not the bad guy. “Oh, baby, if it were up to me I’d TOTALLY be with you. But my family…” That’s a conversation stopper. Say one thing wrong and you risk offending him and his family.

There are a other similar exit strategies that people use:

1. A recent break up or divorce.

2. Kids

3. Jobs

Any time someone brings these up in the first few dates or on an online dating profile, they are laying down a huge boundary and sending a distinct message. This is temporary. This will revolve around me and my schedule. They will use these issues whenever they can. Yes, even kids. Which is why I would always click past any profile on a dating site where the guy was posed with their children or who went out of their way to state that their children are their priorities/center of their worlds. It’s a given that kids will be a priority. I wouldn’t expect anything different. But to make it a point to tell readers of a profile is putting a disclaimer on the ensuing relationship. It’s the same as when people who say  they’re just out of a relationship, looking for friends first, work a lot, etc.

It’s hard to argue against traditions, cultures and religious beliefs. Sure, it’s easy to say, “Geez…he’s an adult. Why can’t he just tell his parents that he wants to choose his own wife?” Easier said than done.  You might end up sounding like you don’t regard or respect that person’s beliefs or cultural traditions. It’s a touchy subject. As antiquated as it may sound to take part in an arranged marriage…it’s not up to you or anyone else to question the validity of such beliefs.

To be honest, I’d be offended if someone ever told me that they could never take me home to meet their family because of my ethnicity, race or faith…but then proceeded to date or have sex with me. If they never even tried to introduce me to their family, that would speak volumes about how they really felt.

I’m not sure at what point in the relationship these men are telling you this. If they told you in the beginning that the relationship had an expiration date, and you stayed, then part of the responsibility lies with you for not only staying with these men, but continuing to date them.

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Filed Under: Dating, Dating & Race, It's Him, Latests Posts, Traditional Dating Rules Tagged With: , , , , , , , ,

Is Prejudice Preventing Him From Getting Dates?

August 4, 2011 by 52 Comments

Name: ken |  | Location: boston , MA |Question: hi!
Ok, i think your site is great and i had signed up for a speed dating session in boston a few weeks ago but couldn’t make it(i apologize). Ok, my painful question to you is this: why am i a dating failure?? It sounds like a simple question, but let me give you a little background and context to answer it fully.

I am mixed(half nigerian,half american)and i came to the US 11 years ago. I have an accent(which these girls tell me is hot, but where’s the rewards?),i’m college educated,financially OK/comfortable,6’3 and good looking (not great, but good). Why don’t i get more girls in boston that i can actually consider date worthy? (could easily consider giving them the gf upgrade).

I know you are an expert on dating Moxie, but do you think you understand how bostonians behave? i typically like a nice and cute woman, but i feel boston girls aren’t naturally very nice and the looks i see them having on the streets turns me off more and more. BUT! i am a bastion of objectivity and i will give a fair person a fair chance. I think i have some racial insecurities in boston, but i am confident and racially exposed. Dating wise,i feel i get a lot less than a 6’3 white guy in boston would get. People say its about your attitude, but how am i ALWAYs expected to keep up a good attitude when sometimes the history of your experience is dotted occasionally failures/stereotypes and underestimations?

Sometimes i think i am a very special and interesting person and maybe a girl who isn’t that probably won’t sync with me? Since boston can be consired a city with a small town mentality(often), i feel most white girls in boston want white guys also.I desperately need some pointers from you because my optimism about dating boston girls is at an all time low. People stare a lot more in boston than NYC and it makes me suspicious of how “worldly” people here are. I am really into world affairs and international politics.Thanks for your advice!! |Age: 27

do you think you understand how bostonians behave

Yes, because I am one. Born and raised. Lived there for 23 years until I moved here to NYC. I only bring this up because there’s this tinge of smugness about this statement.  Just the way you frame this question is condescending…as if you and your plight is just so terribly complex and unique. It’s not. No matter where you live, there will be a segment of the population that won’t date you. Or me. Or him. Or her. What disqualifies someone could be their job, their age, their race, their weight, their  faith. As open minded as our society is becoming (I think) we still harbor prejudices. Like your prejudice against Boston women. :) You have them labeled and judged. Isn’t that the exact thing you fear women are doing to you?

What I’m saying is that maybe part of the problem is your attitude. Not only have you already decided that Boston women are this or that, but you’ve adopted a bit of a persecution complex about it. You perceive these women to have looks on their faces when you seem them. Maybe you’re projecting some of your insecurities?I think you might be going in to situations with these preconceived opinions and ideas. That’s only going to hold you back. You have to meet each person with an open mind until they give you a reason not to. Treat each woman as an individual case. Don’t lump them together.

All that said,  I don’t think the whole onus is on you.

I think the other part of the problem is this:

I think i have some racial insecurities in boston, but i am confident and racially exposed….Since boston can be consired a city with a small town mentality(often), i feel most white girls in boston want white guys also

Okay. I’m just going to come out and say this. I don’t find Boston to be as evolved and progressive as some residents like to think. I have a bi-racial niece and nephew, and my niece (their Mom) still gets looks when she takes her daughter to pre-school. So I’m going to agree with your concern that maybe some women (some, not all) just aren’t open to dating men of races other than theirs. I don’t feel that is due to prejudice as it is due to environmental reasons. Most suburbs of Boston are pretty “white.” We tend to be attracted to what we were exposed to, and all that starts from a very early age.

As a side story, I was looking through photos of my family’s Easter Sunday. What used to be a sea of white faces was now a multi-cultural collage. My niece’s fiancee is Jamaican. My other niece’s boyfriend is African American. My brother in law’s daughter is African American and their son is bi-racial. Of course, my gorgeous niece and nephew are a mix of Jamaican, Irish & Sicilian. Plus my soon to be nephew in law’s sister and husband were also in attendance. So things change.

But back to you….

May I suggest trying to meet women who live in Cambridge? Cambridge, to me, is the closest to NYC that you’ll get. Definitely socialize in Boston proper. There are a lot of schools in Boston, and many graduates stay in Boston to work. So you’re going to meet a lot of women from all over the country/world. Even when I was at school (Emerson) 20 years ago, it was like I was in a whole new world. As I mentioned above, I came from whitey white town. In college, I was exposed to so much more and was given a window in to what the real world was like. You’re only 27, so going to college bars isn’t that unseemly. You’ll still find a group of post-grads there, especially MIT bars. I guess you could go for the tweener set (19/21) but do you really want to have to tell your friends that you’re dating someone who’s not of legal age to buy alcohol? Plus the emotional maturity level is drastically different. Those few years after college are when we develop an identity and sense of ourselves. At 19-21 or so we’re still figuring out who we are.

My other suggestion is to look for a job here in Manhattan and move here. I think you’ll notice a huge change in attitudes and experiences here. If that’s not an option, try online dating but look to meet women in NYC or DC. It’s a 3 hour train ride!

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Filed Under: Dating, Dating & Race, Dating In a Big City, Latests Posts, Manly Man, Meeting Women

Is It Harder for Black Women to Date Online?

June 14, 2011 by 82 Comments

Name: marshmallow | | Location: New York , NY |Question: Hi Moxie,
You’ve given me some grest advice over the years – even if it took me awhile to actually follow it and listen. I hope you can help me help my friend. My friend is a kind, smart, caring and attractive African-Amerian woman who is having an extremely hard time finding a date. She posted an online dating profile but seriously all she hears from are men in their 60s – she’s 35 and she would like children so this is a bit too old. She’s contacted men but never hears back. I’ve heard (I’m white so I don’t have first hand experience) that black women have a really hard time in the dating world no matter how much they have to offer. I know you run a lot of dating events so maybe you can share your insite into this. Any suggestions? She’s very flexible in regard to race, age (her upper limit is 45 which I think is reasonable) etc. She only wants to meet ONE guy. |Age: 36

 

Well, I’m at a severe disadvantage here, obviously. But I know our readers aren’t. I’m going to turn this over to them.

I’m hoping to get feedback from men and women of all races.

Do you find that if you contact someone outside of your race, you have more or less success?

Do you find it more difficult to date online? What has your experience been?

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Filed Under: Dating, Dating & Race, Latests Posts, Online Dating